Chubb (Union) 3R35X suitablility

[Makeitgo]

Hi all

I was wondering if someone might be able to help with a few questions that I've got. I live in Victorian house divided into 4 flats. I own one of the flats and all four flat are all leaseholders of the house freehold.

There is one main front door to the house which is the main escape route to the street. When I moved in about 15 years ago, the front door was fitted with a bad rim lock and a cheap dead lock that was faulty and presented a fire risk.

Back then, I consulted a decent locksmith and he recommended a Chubb 3R35X for many reasons but mainly these:
- It slams shut with an automatic deadlocking action (but can always be opened from the inside)
- It can always be opened using a big grabable handle from the inside making escape easy and from the outside with the key
- It is effectively a nightlatch that cannot be deadlocked from the inside (because it's an escape route and this is a feature of the "X" model)
- Finally, it's built like a tank and will take a battering, equalling the strength of our door and frame.

I've loved this lock so much, I've just replaced it (£120) with a new one and kept the old one (still working) as a spare.

However, this lock incorporates a curtain/bolt thrower which is a great security feature as far as anti-pick, but has a small downside. Problem is that if one of the occupants tries to open the door with the wrong key (probably internal lock key or Yale key depending on how long they've been down the pub) it's possible for the curtain to move round and block the keyway. Yes it's a piece of P*** to reset, but there you go.

Because of the above, one of the occupants either locked themselves out, or was locked out by another occupant a few days ago (not sure which). I sorted it easily straight away, as you do. This is the second time it has happened in about 18 years... so not bad huh?

The locked out resident (who I let in immediately) has now emailed all four flats suggesting that we need to decide on a different front door lock, because they are claiming the 3R35X is inferior due to its ability to lock you out if you don't use the correct key. I must add that this person is unable to walk without crutches and as expected, felt vulnerable not being able to gain entry.

However, I obviously don't want to change this lock if I can help it but if anyone could help with the following, I'd be grateful because I'm gobsmacked at this person's reaction.

- Has anyone else had the same issue regularly with locks incorporating a curtain/bolt thrower (be nice to get stats on how often this can happen worst case scenario)

- Does anyone know of a substitute for this lock given the role it plays (I've seen a few BS standard cylinder locks that are supposed to be OK but nothing I regard being as great as the 3R35X). I would ideally like to present a case where I could genuinely say there is no substitute for the 3R35X in its functionality in this application - what do you think?

- Does anyone have any ideas as to how to manage this situation? For years I've done my level best to do as much as I can for the other residents, including all the lock purchasing, maintenance and installation and loads of other house upkeep tasks, which they have otherwise had to hire a contractor for.

Part of me wants to just tell them sort it themselves, but I just know they would find the most expensive contractor and I would be ripped off for one quarter of the bill. Also, none of them could project manage a cup of tea, let alone a lock replacement. I'll stop there. Thanks guys.

 

[crank39]

Why don't you reply to the email and tell everyone to use the right bloody key, also state the lock is not inferior and was recommended by a bona fide locksmith as an escape lock and costs in the region of £150

 

[Makeitgo]

Why don't you reply to the email and tell everyone to use the right bloody key, also state the lock is not inferior and was recommended by a bona fide locksmith as an escape lock and costs in the region of £150

Cheers Crank
I have already sent them all an email explaining what happened and how to avoid it so we don't get a repeat episode. I have also in previous emails, let them all know that this lock is **** hot and they are all very secure. Looks like it backfired on me. : - )

 

[crank39]

Tell em to get a grip, use the right key and the locks staying, tell em any other lock will need to comply with fire regs, that should slow them down a bit in the search for a 'cheaper' lock

 

[Makeitgo]

Yeah, your're right another one would need to comply and if it's a lever/detainer lock, it would most probably also have a curtain as with the 3R35 and they'd be back at square one. I dont know if there are any high security locks without a curtain? Is there a cylinder lock for instance, that's big and very secure like the 3R35? And I was actually wondering if anyone could see any flaws in my plan to tell them to blow it out of their blowhole.

 

[crank39]

One thing I don't get though is how they manage to remove the key albeit the wrong key but still leave the curtain spun so they can't get the correct key in?

 

[JohnD]

the Chubb detainer range is built to quite close tolerances, and will not accommodate being "a bit out".

I've known someone leave the curtain slightly out of alignment so a key won't go in. I don't know how they managed it. Perhaps jiggled the key slightly when removing it.

Once you recognise the problem it is quite easy to poke the curtain back into position.

I have been using 3R35 for many years and in several houses. They are splendid. I like to dismantle and clean mine every 20 years or so.

 

[Makeitgo]

I know, it's hard to believe people manage to do it. As I said this happened once to the old Chubb and once with this Union one, but it happens so rarely. I've actually tried to make it happen deliberately it as a test with the wrong key and it takes some doing. It might be when you have a key with a profile where the lands/cuts on the bit, form a sort of "E" shape and the end land (hope I got the terminology right) hooks onto the curtain without either going into or sitting square onto the keyway, mainly because the shaft is too small a diameter and thus can be removed. It might also be when they pull a incorrect key out. Either way I've found other people online that have had this issue, even though the phenomenon is as rare as rocking horse ****. Attached are pics of the keyway in both states.

 

[Makeitgo]

High JohnD, thanks for your input. How many times has it happened to you? I plan to pull my (now spare) Chubb appart at some point, clean it lube it and replace the detainers (for security reasons) and swap in a new curtain/bolt thrower which I understand is the main part that weares and needs replacing (after a few decades).

 

[crank39]

I'm assuming it's spring loaded to return it to vertical, could you bend the spring steel a bit to give it more resistance, maybe that could help it return?

 

[Makeitgo]

Sorry Crank, maybe I didn't explain properly, it isn't caused by a tired spring (yes it is sprung loaded) it's the expected behaviour of the model. The lock this happened on is brand new. Union (ASSA ABLOY) as they are now, explain that the curtain is for nati-pick reasons, but they don't make a point of saying the curtain is designed deliberately to shut the keyway down as an additional self defence feature (although I'm glad it does myself as it's one more thing to keep the Ar**H**** out : -)

 

[JohnD]

I have only had it happen once. I wasn't there. the builders who had locked up the night before said they couldn't unlock it in the morning.

Another trade with more sense jiggled it back with a small screwdriver.

I don't think it has ever happened before.

The spring is not a return, it is a detent. If you push the curtain round, the spring will not put it back.

 

[crank39]

The spring is not a return, it is a detent. If you push the curtain round, the spring will not put it back.

Quite right, I don't know why I thought it was a return

 

[Makeitgo]

"only had it happen once" Thanks for that John, I'm starting see that this seems to be a rare to occurence. John, Crank, with regard to the terms "sprung loaded", "return" and "detent" as John remarked, I'm pretty sure detent is the correct term, cheers. Funny that you said it was your builders that caused it, in my case it was someone else's contractor the first time it happened, years ago.

 

[crank39]

I've seen it happen before years ago but only the once and i posted here about it, got called out to gain entry into the side door of a garage, customer said the key wouldnt go in the lock anymore but was fine the day before, so I got there and knelt down and looked through the handle and saw the curtain had spun around, easy fix with a thin screwdriver and 30 secs and I was done, customer had gone to make me a coffee so I took the trouble of removing the handles and lock, it was a BS ERA fortress sashlock, stripped the lid off it to inspect and see why it should spin, the spring was there and working and like John said it's a detent not return, greased it all up, had my coffee and a quick chat to explain what had happened and the lock was fine and didn't need changing and I was on my way, didn't charge anything as all I'd done was flick the curtain and greased the internals.

It wasn't till a day or so later I started wondering if this was some sort of set up by trading standards or some other rogue trader style daytime tv program trying to catch locksmiths out, I mean it's easy just to flick the curtain around with a screwdriver and ring a locksmith and hide in a bush with a camera