Chubb (Union) 3R35X suitablility

[Makeitgo]

Hi Crank, I've been a bit busy, thanks for all the detail. You are obviously a locksmith of integrity. I do IT and have had loads of opportunities to make a meal of it, but I'd rather not be classed as that sort of guy either. Hope the coffee was nice though, the last thing you need is for Matt Allwright with a plastic nose and glasses to be breathing down your neck.
Anyway, I saw another couple of other decent locksmiths yesterday just to consolidate my thoughts and I've gathered the following, if my understanding is correct but I welcome being corrected by anyone if I'm wrong:

- 3R35X curtain slipping round accidentally happens at about the frequency you guys have seen it (for a single customer) i.e. once every few years or so, depending on how mindful the key users are. All locks with a curtain (high security lever/detainer locks) seem to use a similar method regarding the detent of the curtain and are therefore prone to the same issue as discussed.

- 3R35X complies completely with fire regs for an escape route final exit door (bearing in mind this is a private residence with four flats) but it does not have the features that make it BS Standard insurance approved (it's not able to be deadlocked from either side using a key).

- If the 3R35X was substituted for a lock that conformed to BS Standards, it would no longer comply with the fire regs for an escape route final exit door.

- There are a few high end rim locks that could be used instead of the 3R35X, but as above, they would fail to comply with the fire regulations, due to the fact they succeed in complying with the current BS Standard (they are deadlockable using a key). Further to that, rim locks are not regarded as highly secure in comparison to high security mortices, due to their design, which is why an additional mortice dead lock is usually installed in conjunction with them. Again in this case, a combo of rim/mortice would not comply with the fire regs for an escape route final exit door.

- To avoid using curtained mortice locks in the same application, it would be possible to cobble together a mortice lock kit based around a euro cylinder, with the appropriate additional hardware. However when comparing the reliability, security capabilities and vulnerabilities of Euro locks against the 3R35X, the positives seem to lean heavily towards the 3R35X. In addition to this, the above does not even take into consideration the Euro lock's chequered history with regard to its susceptibility to being bumped, snapped or defeated by other methods of cylinder attack. As an aside, it would also mean filling and making good the wooden door frame, then chopping out the wood from scratch to accommodate the new mortice lock's form factor.

I would welcome any comments if Ive missed anything... Cheers.

 

[Makeitgo]

I'd just like to thank crank39 and JohnD for their help. I've now talked to the person who had reservations about the 3R35X and they've now come round to my way of thinking. I hope my last post might be useful for others scratching their heads about these issues, but it is by no means a reference as I may not have got everything absolutely correct and would be overjoyed for someone to straighten out anything I got wrong. Cheers guys.

 

[JohnD]

you can get locks, intended for flats, which can always be opened from inside without a key (cannot be deadlocked) for fire escape purposes. Some of them are Eurocylinders, but some are modern nightlatches similar (better than) the old "Yale" type.

The is a British Standard number for them which I don't have to hand.

I suppose if you got one with the BS type of armoured outer cylinder, it would be somewhat secure, but IME rimlatches and their hasps are easier to shoulder open than proper mortice locks.

Edit:
This sort of thing. Looks like the BS is BS8621:2007.
I have a friend with one like this on the fire door which is the exit from her upstairs flat. The insurance co's accept it where an escape lock is needed. It has the armoured outer cylinder.

https://www.locksonline.co.uk/ERA-1730-BS8621-2004-Auto-Deadlocking-Escape-Nightlatch.html

 

[Makeitgo]

Thanks a lot John. I had a look at a bunch of Eurocylinder based solutions and didn't fancy them for the reasons I already stated, but thanks for the info. The nightlatch you added a link to, actually looks like a nice job if you're willing to sacrafice the lack of surface area it can utilise to be mounted (so pretty much as you said, shoulderable, although less so than your average Yale). Seems crazy that they think it's a good idea to make this rim lock comply with BS8621 when the 3R35X doesn't. Actually from what I gather, rightly or wrongly, regarding the insurance angle, it's common practice in multiple flats with a escape route final exit to have a non-insurance compliant lock on that communal door, but in the individual flat's final exits have a BS standard lock so as to be covered for insurance on each flat. I don't know what you've found in your experience? Presumably you couldn't make an insurance claim for the stuff that was nicked from the communal area behind the non-BS lock but you could for stuff behind the BS8621 lock on each flat?

 

[crank39]

Actually from what I gather, rightly or wrongly, regarding the insurance angle, it's common practice in multiple flats with a escape route final exit to have a non-insurance compliant lock on that communal door, but in the individual flat's final exits have a BS standard lock so as to be covered for insurance on each flat. I don't know what you've found in your experience? Presumably you couldn't make an insurance claim for the stuff that was nicked from the communal area behind the non-BS lock but you could for stuff behind the BS8621 lock on each flat?

That's how I would interpret it, so that being the case could you not fit a 3R35X euro then instead with a thumb turn barrel for your fire escape and that would cure the spinning curtain issue as well

 

[Makeitgo]

That actually looks like it could be a solution if push came to shove. I'll take a look at that later, cheers.

 

[JohnD]

could you not fit a 3R35X euro

3R35 does not accept a Eurocylinder. It is a Detainer lock.

 

[crank39]

http://surelockmcgill.com/uk/customlocks-singlepoint-chubb3r35.html

 

[JohnD]

well that's an interesting curiosity.

I wonder who made it?

Do you think Chubb Custodial know their trademark is being used?i

 

[crank39]

well that's an interesting curiosity.

I wonder who made it?

Do you think Chubb Custodial know their trademark is being used?i

Not sure, it appears to be genuine though, having said that its the only search result for a euro version of that lock, strange one

 

[Makeitgo]

I called them and asked how much it was. £235.08 inc VAT and delivery. I asked if it was made under licence from Chubb but the person I talked to didn't know. I just can't see the same lock anywhere else on the interweb either. Strange indeed...

 

[JohnD]

"Union" (Assa Abloy) have the manufacturing rights and the factory, but not a licence to use the Chubb name. Their previous licence expired and was not renewed.

Rather like Rolls-Royce, Volkswagen and BMW.

 

[Makeitgo]

Quite correct John, I should have said Union or (Assa Abloy) not Chubb and you're right, I've got the box the 3R35X came in and Union/Assa Abloy is all that's on the box. It's so sad a brand like that dissapearing, but there you go.

 

[crank39]

I wonder if it was originally a Chubb that's been custom modified, custom locks makes me wonder if they've machined the euro 'hole' in the case and modified the internals?

 

[Makeitgo]

Could be, but wouldn't they have to have a big stack of pre-Assa genuine Chubb locks to modify. I wonder about how sustainable that would be, curiouser and curiouser.