Circulation problem - and my plumber is desperate!

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Situation is that my Central Heating (30 years old) is not functioning properly. Given my best shot at describing it - but I know nothing about plumbing :(

This is an open vented system with an F&E tank and a conventional S plan layout exactly as per this drawing according to the plumber:

http://www.gasman.fsbusiness.co.uk/images/sppic.jpg

The system uses 28 mm going down to 15 mm with 10 mm pipes off this to radiators

Boiler (ten years old) is in garage, pump and F&E in cylinder cupboard.

Symptoms are that only 3 radiators are now getting hot. (two in upstairs bathrooms, one on landing). Main bedroom radiator is tepid. The feed pipe to the tepid radiator is hot but the return cool. Where radiators are completely cold both pipes are also cold.

Initially the main problem when the syatem started to misbehave was that the main radiator (huge) in the lounge was cold at the bottom but hot at the top. I had had this problem before, about a year ago, with other radiators also not warm enough and a pressure flush (different plumber :)) got it working fairly well again (although certainly not perfectly).

Water is only hand hot from cylinder (stat set to 160 degrees)

Plumber has tried checking pump and motorised valves and flushed every radiator individually (but not pressure flushed entire system which he is not greatly in favour of). He has also tried running it as heating only (by turning down the cylinder stat as the simple programmer does not allow this) and with several rads shut off.

He feels that the problem must be a blockage in the return as the feed is hot but the return only warm but does not know if this is air or sludge.

Only positive actions taken has been to replace a vent into the F&E tank which was removed (I think) several years ago when it was pumping over and the F&E tank was full of extremely hot water casuing a major condensation problem. The tank now gets pleasantly warm when the system has been on for some time but shows no sign of overheating. I do not think it is now pumping over

He has also filled a vent to the a long horizontal run of the return pipe near the boiler to try and get rid of air from the system. Over the course of two days the system has been drained and refilled several times - with difficulty. I think he has had to resort to using water from the mains to do this rather than simply from the normal cold feed.

Picture of cylinder cupboard showing new vent into F&E tank

www.paulhodson.f2s.com/cupboard.jpg

Close up of pump and valves (somewhat obscured by shower pump)

www.paulhodson.f2s.com/pumppic.jpg

However, as the system has worked correctly in past I asume all plumbing is basically correct

Both days of his visit, by the end of the day the downstairs radiators had started getting somewhere from fairly warm to tepid depending on location - but then cool down again even though the heating is still running and are eventually literally icy cold without any sign of heat in them.

The next morning they stay permanently icy with just the same three heating up as before. This would seem to me to suggest that it might be air getting into the system again but I don't know how or where. otherwise presumablly sludge is resettling.

The situation is worse than when he started - although I have every confidence in him - local well respected guy who is both embarassed and tearing his hair out!

I suppose my main confusion is that three radiators appear to work more or less normally but no others. If the blockage is in the return I would have expected all to have the same problem and if in the 10 mm radiator feed pipes it seems odd they should all block up at the same time.

It is also odd that it seemed to work slightly better before the vent into the F&E was refitted - but this obviously should be there.

Money is not an issue - I would try everything up to replumbing the entire damn system - but I cannot even imagine the difficulty and mess to the house in this process so am looking for any bright ideas he can try!

Sorry for the long post - tried to explain everything - but no doubt failed!
 
Are the three rads working normally nearest to the boiler? If so, perhaps the return is blocked beyond them. Maybe with the system up to temperature you could work your way along the return from the boiler and find the point where it starts to go cold?
 
your assumption that because it worked for x years that it`s piped right is .........in my opinion ........all wrong and I guess your plumber is too polite to tell you to re pipe the lot properly. Personally I hate any microbore configuration and also combined feed/vents .......but then I`m just a blunt, dinosaur plumber rude even :lol: but i`ve done 99% of my jobs right over the last 30 years and the 1% for example where I had badly positioned the feed tank ..........I fixed FOC :lol: You`re not alone, there are millions of incorrect/lash ups that work after a fashion
 
All the problems described are typical of a blocked system.

If the pipework design is poor then it may work reasonable well but sludge will show up the defects.

Often customers have a false assessment of the competence of their plumber. The only qualities they value are turning up quickly at a pre arranged time. Thats easier for less skilled people who dont get much work to do.

In my view your system is badly sludged again, the pump may not be operating fully and it probably has design defects which have caused the sludging up.

Tony
 
I agree with Agile. I had a similar problem and perservered with bleeding it and adding anti-corrosive solututions and all sorts - not ideal at all but might save some money so obviously give it ago. Otherwise all you can do is replace the radiators (I guess there as old as the boiler, www.vhsdirect.co.uk [I think] are good brands and cheap).

The other thing, check for leakages in the system to avoid air going into the water that might corrode radiators again in future and add a device to limit future corrosion (I can't remember what they're called but they take air out the system).

Sorry if I repeatd anyones ideas - it is a very long link!

Other than that I wish you the greatest of luck with your dilemma!!!! Let us know how it goes anyway,

Ben
 
davelx said:
Are the three rads working normally nearest to the boiler? If so, perhaps the return is blocked beyond them. Maybe with the system up to temperature you could work your way along the return from the boiler and find the point where it starts to go cold?

No long way away upstairs!
 
Nige F said:
your assumption that because it worked for x years that it`s piped right is .........in my opinion ........all wrong and I guess your plumber is too polite to tell you to re pipe the lot properly. Personally I hate any microbore configuration and also combined feed/vents .......but then I`m just a blunt, dinosaur plumber rude even :lol: but i`ve done 99% of my jobs right over the last 30 years and the 1% for example where I had badly positioned the feed tank ..........I fixed FOC :lol: You`re not alone, there are millions of incorrect/lash ups that work after a fashion

You could be right - but I do know him well enough for him to tell me. Wehave discussed doing that but it would be a horrendous job!
 
Agile said:
All the problems described are typical of a blocked system.

If the pipework design is poor then it may work reasonable well but sludge will show up the defects.

Often customers have a false assessment of the competence of their plumber. The only qualities they value are turning up quickly at a pre arranged time. Thats easier for less skilled people who dont get much work to do.

In my view your system is badly sludged again, the pump may not be operating fully and it probably has design defects which have caused the sludging up.

Tony

Is the best way forward power flushing then, do you think?
 
BenMC said:
The other thing, check for leakages in the system to avoid air going into the water that might corrode radiators again in future and add a device to limit future corrosion (I can't remember what they're called but they take air out the system).

Other than that I wish you the greatest of luck with your dilemma!!!! Let us know how it goes anyway,

Ben

Thinking of pressurising the system to do away with the F&E and try to make sure no air is getting in.

MOD 2

please use the edit key :idea:
 
weareleeds said:
Do not seal system if blr doesn't have an overheat stat

Hopefully it does as plumber has just left after doing it! He is also an industrial heating engineer so hopefully knows what he is doing :)

It does seem to have made a substantial difference - all rads now hot although the lounge and dining room ones are only fully hot (top and bottom) when others are turned off.

However they are some distance from the hall (probably up to 7 metres from the likely position of the 15 mm pipe which is a long way for 10 mm to cope).

My suspicion is that we had both an air blockage and a sludge problem - the air lock has gone but the sludge remains. He is due back later this week to check progress and balancing.

Will let you know - really appreciate people trying to help :)
 
Agile said:
Needs sludge removal attention and balancing!

Tony

I agree - I think the problem is that most of the radiators now seem OK with only two problem ones - the lounge and dining room. The lounge in particular involves a lomg run of 10 mm pipe and I fear the sludge is in that. Flushing will therefore be difficult and replumbing it very messy. Not sure if it would be possible to get under the (chipboard) floor to do it so might mean a lot of mess :(
 

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