Clarification - junction boxes

[JohnW2]

An electrician once suggested to me that something was 'inaccessible' if it's location was such that it would/could not be inspected during a 'standard EICR' (wll, he probably said PIR at the time!) - and that sounds like a reasonable rule-of-thumb to me.

Its worth remembering that there is no such thing as a standard EICR.
Each and every inspection is a individual contract between the Inspector and the person paying for the inspection ...

Sure, I understand that, and the electrician who said that to me was undoubtedly talking specifically in terms of residential installations in occupied houses - which is what he usually worked on. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would have doubted that many residential EICRs of occupied premises would involve the lifting of floor coverings and floorborads, would they? Apart from anything else, one would usually have to extensively lift the floor coverings to even identify places (evidenced by signs of boards having been cut/lifted) where 'hidden JBs' might be.

It's clearly different in an unoccupied propery with no floor coverings - identifying likely places for 'hidden JBs' would then often be quite easy, as would gaining access to them.

Nevertheless, I thought (and stil think) that, maybe with a bit of a tweak of the wording, it was quite a reasonable rule-of-thumb - essentially saying that something should be regarded as 'inaccesible' if it would not 'normally' (whatever that means) be seen/inspected during an EICR.

Kind Regards, John

 

[BeeLZeebub]

On a related note, I'm about to replace a light which hangs below a tiled floor. The new fitting's rose has minimal space so I plan to terminate cables in a choc-box and push it into the void. Does the hole made (t'will be a new one as I'm relocating to find a joist) simply need to be big enough (once plastering is done) so it can simply be dragged back down again for inspection?

As you've been told, if a 'junction box' can be pulled down into view after removing, say, a light fitting, then that is generally regarded as accessible enough to satisfy the regulations.

However, I'm not totally clear about what you are saying. If you really mean a standard ceiling rose (which I suspect you don't), it would not be normal (and could well be difficult or impossible) to have a hole underneath it large enough to pull even a 'chock-box' through - so are you perhaps talking about something larger than a standard ceiling rose?

I know the debate has moved on, but just for good order's sake, I meant a metallic ‘rose’ (I had assumed that this is the generic term for the element that fixes to the ceiling). It was a squeeze - with bracket in place on joist - but the chock-box is now in the void. I defer to the debate as to whether or not this could be called accessible … but I prefer this uncertainty to the alternative, which was terminating multiple 1.5mm wires within a confined space and having the wife hold the damn fitting .....

 

[riveralt]

I know the debate has moved on, but just for good order's sake, I meant a metallic ‘rose’ (I had assumed that this is the generic term for the element that fixes to the ceiling). It was a squeeze - with bracket in place on joist - but the chock-box is now in the void. I defer to the debate as to whether or not this could be called accessible … but I prefer this uncertainty to the alternative, which was terminating multiple 1.5mm wires within a confined space and having the wife hold the damn fitting .....

Don't worry about whether it meets some non-descript definition of accessible or not - let other people who have both the time and inclination worry about that. Job safely done - end of story!

 

[JohnW2]

Don't worry about whether it meets some non-descript definition of accessible or not - let other people who have both the time and inclination worry about that. Job safely done - end of story!

Quite so. There are countless joints in my house which many might regard as 'inaccessible', but I don't lose a moment's sleep over it. However, as we see, some people are very concerned about strict compliance with regulations, and we can but try to offer them at least an opinion as to what is compliant and what is not - albeit, with issues like this one, opinions are likley to differ markedly.

Kind Regards, John

 

[mfarrow]

Presumablly if you overboarded the ceiling one of two things is true, you would be changing the lighting.

Or they could just remove the cables to the lamps, keep the junction boxes where the are, and put one rose in the middle. If they listened to BAS, they just might!

Connect 4 ceiling

This is a ceiling with lighting arranged in a rigid grid in an attempt to light every part of the room evenly. It resembles the game and lottery scratchcard of the same name.

As BAS has pointed out many, many, many times before, these lights are designed not to light rooms, but are designed to light specific parts of it. Therefore you need to put them where you actual need the light - edge of worktops, over sinks, in doorways, above a picture etc. After some thought, such subtle, architectural lighting creates a much more pleasing affect than a grid system, for which you might as well have gone for a ceiling rose or the large CFL downlight BAS always suggests.

 

[JohnW2]

As BAS has pointed out many, many, many times before, these lights are designed not to light rooms, but are designed to light specific parts of it. Therefore you need to put them where you actual need the light...

He has, indeed, said that many times, but I sometimes wonder if his mind is still in the era of 'spotlights only', and hasn't noticed the appearance of wide-angle downlighters (≥60° beams). A 60° lamp on a ceiling at 8 feet/2.4 m will produce an area of (fairly even) illumination of over 5 feet in diameter at worktop level, and about 9 feet in diameter at floor level.

Kind Regards, John

 

[riveralt]

He has, indeed, said that many times, but I sometimes wonder if his mind is still in the era of 'spotlights only', and hasn't noticed the appearance of wide-angle downlighters (≥60° beams). A 60° lamp on a ceiling at 8 feet/2.4 m will produce an area of (fairly even) illumination of over 5 feet in diameter at worktop level, and about 9 feet in diameter at floor level.

I have been fitting 120° LED lamps for over a year now, even got them in my own home, and more and more are coming to the market each day. Perhaps if BAS tries them then maybe he will be a little more flexible to their use!

 

[JohnW2]

I have been fitting 120° LED lamps for over a year now, even got them in my own home, and more and more are coming to the market each day. Perhaps if BAS tries them then maybe he will be a little more flexible to their use!

Indeed! I didn't even 'dare' mention 120° ones, since they're not all that common yet - but, as I illustrated, even 60° ones give pretty wide coverage. I suspect that BAS's mind is still thinking 15° ones!

Kind Regards, John