Clarification - junction boxes

[BeeLZeebub]

I see frequent references to the need for junction boxes to be easily accessible. As most (older) houses seem to have a mix of looped-in-at-the-rose and junction box-fed lighting configurations (the latter entailing a number of them located beneath the floorboards and carpet in turn), does this mean that this configuration now falls foul of the regs? Or did it always?

On a related note, I'm about to replace a light which hangs below a tiled floor. The new fitting's rose has minimal space so I plan to terminate cables in a choc-box and push it into the void. Does the hole made (t'will be a new one as I'm relocating to find a joist) simply need to be big enough (once plastering is done) so it can simply be dragged back down again for inspection?

Thanks in advance for any advice (oh, and sorry if this has been raised before)

Edit - soreeeee !! Hadnt read the past couple o' days posts - didnt see Bonce's post below on similar subject ! To salvage my pride though - can someone still say whether my proposed for new light is OK .....

 

[plugwash]

Regs say that most connections* need to be accessible for inspection. Exactly what counts as accessible for inspection is debatable. The general standard I would apply is "can it be accessed with a reasonable ammount of effort without having to destory something" but i'm sure others would differ on that.

The problem with putting junction boxes under floorboards is they may be reasonablly easy to access in a carpeted room but then later someone comes along and fits a floor covering that is much harder to lift without destroying it.

Having boxes that are accessed by dragging them through the fitting hole seems to be generally accepted and may well be the least bad soloution in an existing install. It's certainly something I'd want to avoid in new installs though.

Another option with some fittings can be to install a circular box in the cieling and then attatch the fitting to that box.

I'm not sure how long this has been the case for but it's certainly something electricians seem to have become more hot on in recent times.

* There are a handful of exceptions including soldered connections, crimped connections, resin encapsulated connections and connections made using approved "maintinance free" junction boxes.

 

[riveralt]

I see frequent references to the need for junction boxes to be easily accessible.

On a related note, I'm about to replace a light which hangs below a tiled floor. The new fitting's rose has minimal space so I plan to terminate cables in a choc-box and push it into the void. Does the hole made (t'will be a new one as I'm relocating to find a joist) simply need to be big enough (once plastering is done) so it can simply be dragged back down again for inspection?

What you propose is fine - it is accessible.

 

[BeeLZeebub]

Thanks guys .... (will studiously get up to date before posting again!)

How would such a junction box configuration be noted on an inspection? (Excuse my ignorance of the detail that PIRs go into). Would it be noted as "in need of modernisation" or is there some sort of 'grandfather right' that would constitute a waiver....?

 

[riveralt]

How would such a junction box configuration be noted on an inspection? (Excuse my ignorance of the detail that PIRs go into). Would it be noted as "in need of modernisation" or is there some sort of 'grandfather right' that would constitute a waiver....?

I would be surprised if an Electrical Installation condition report inspector went as far as removing lamps like yours (the extent of the inspection is agreed between the Inspector and the person paying for the service) but in your case there is nothing to report.

 

[BeeLZeebub]

How would such a junction box configuration be noted on an inspection? (Excuse my ignorance of the detail that PIRs go into). Would it be noted as "in need of modernisation" or is there some sort of 'grandfather right' that would constitute a waiver....?

I would be surprised if an Electrical Installation condition report inspector went as far as removing lamps like yours (the extent of the inspection is agreed between the Inspector and the person paying for the service) but in your case there is nothing to report.

I apologise - I wasnt clear. I meant, if an inspector was faced with a prevalence of junction boxes dotted beneath floorboards, would he go as far as recommending a general rewire ...to comply with the regs?

 

[riveralt]

I apologise - I wasnt clear. I meant, if an inspector was faced with a prevalence of junction boxes dotted beneath floorboards, would he go as far as recommending a general rewire ...to comply with the regs?

No - the focus of an EICR is to primarily identify dangerous or potentially dangerous situations. "Improvement recommended" would not lead to a recommendation for a rewire.

For bedtime reading:
http://www.esc.org.uk/fileadmin/use...y/best_practice/BestPracticeGuide4-Locked.pdf

 

[JohnW2]

On a related note, I'm about to replace a light which hangs below a tiled floor. The new fitting's rose has minimal space so I plan to terminate cables in a choc-box and push it into the void. Does the hole made (t'will be a new one as I'm relocating to find a joist) simply need to be big enough (once plastering is done) so it can simply be dragged back down again for inspection?

As you've been told, if a 'junction box' can be pulled down into view after removing, say, a light fitting, then that is generally regarded as accessible enough to satisfy the regulations.

However, I'm not totally clear about what you are saying. If you really mean a standard ceiling rose (which I suspect you don't), it would not be normal (and could well be difficult or impossible) to have a hole underneath it large enough to pull even a 'chock-box' through - so are you perhaps talking about something larger than a standard ceiling rose?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Regs say that most connections* need to be accessible for inspection. Exactly what counts as accessible for inspection is debatable. The general standard I would apply is "can it be accessed with a reasonable ammount of effort without having to destory something" but i'm sure others would differ on that. The problem with putting junction boxes under floorboards is they may be reasonablly easy to access in a carpeted room but then later someone comes along and fits a floor covering that is much harder to lift without destroying it.

As you say, the question of what is 'accessible' is certainly open to debate. However, the impression I get is that most electricians would not regard 'under floorbiards' as being acceptably accessible, even with a carpeted floor. Don't forget that we are talking about accessibility "for inspection, testing and maintenance', and I really can't see many electricians moving furniture and lifting carpet and floorboards in the name of I&T - even if they knew where the JBs were, can you? ...

... and that leads to another practical issue. Many people, like the OP, express concerns about inaccessible JBs in the context of inspections (e.g. EICRs). The reality surely is that, if the JBs are totally inaccessible, 99% of the time the inspector is going to be unaware of their existance, let alone location, and therefore would not be in a position to comment on them in an inspection report?

Kind Regards, John

 

[mfarrow]

The problem with putting junction boxes under floorboards is they may be reasonablly easy to access in a carpeted room but then later someone comes along and fits a floor covering that is much harder to lift without destroying it.

The same is true if you decided you didn't like the connect 4 ceiling and/or artex and overboarded it. I don't disagree however that carpet doesn't take too favourably to being pulled up too many times.

 

[plugwash]

The same is true if you decided you didn't like the connect 4 ceiling and/or artex and overboarded it.

Connect 4 ceiling?

 

[JohnW2]

Connect 4 ceiling?

Forum code for lots of downlights, making the ceiling look like a game board/screen

Kind Regards, John

 

[plugwash]

Presumablly if you overboarded the ceiling one of two things is true, either you would be refitting the existing lights (in which case there would still be holes for them, though admittedly there is a possibility the new holes would be too small to get the boxes through) or you would be changing the lighting (in which case I would reasonablly consider it your responsibility to ensure the wiring for the new lighting arrangement was compliant)

OTOH someone fitting a new floor covering is unlikely to think at all about hidden junction boxes. They may not even know they exist.

 

[JohnW2]

Presumablly if you overboarded the ceiling ....OTOH someone fitting a new floor covering is unlikely to think at all about hidden junction boxes. They may not even know they exist.

True - but, as I said, the impression I get is that most, if not all, electricians would regard JBs under floorboards/floors as being too 'inaccessible' to satsify the regs, regardless of the nature of the floor and floor covering - so the question might be moot.

An electrician once suggested to me that something was 'inaccessible' if it's location was such that it would/could not be inspected during a 'standard EICR' (wll, he probably said PIR at the time!) - and that sounds like a reasonable rule-of-thumb to me.

Kind Regards, John

 

[riveralt]

An electrician once suggested to me that something was 'inaccessible' if it's location was such that it would/could not be inspected during a 'standard EICR' (wll, he probably said PIR at the time!) - and that sounds like a reasonable rule-of-thumb to me.

Its worth remembering that there is no such thing as a standard EICR.
Each and every inspection is a individual contract between the Inspector and the person paying for the inspection - it has no legal standing by itself.
We cannot like British Gas turn off the electricity even when an item is classed as C1.
In determining the terms of the contract the two parties agree to the extent of the Inspection - maybe limited to the amount of time or the number of random sockets/ceiling roses that will be inspected or the amount of 'carpets and floorboards' that will be lifted.
Some Electricians set out their own minimum levels of inspection and the price for it and additional work completed.
Some clients, for example solicitors involved in house sales have their own minimum requirements.