Complete CH & HW Failure - New Years Eve

[Beano1967]

Please bear with me I'm going to try and give as much detail. Covered by British Gas who appeared and disappeared saying the the problem was due to blockage therefore not covered, quoted a silly price for a system flush (10 Rads) and then quoted the Earth and the Stars for installing a New Two Pipe System. I'm a normal Joe with a wife and three pan lids afer crimbo they're having a giraffe?

Back Boiler, Single Pipe, Gravity, Vented system (cold water expansion tank sits on top of the Hot water Cylinder). New Years eve the CH/HW system shuts down.

Discovered, that theres a blockage in the CH heating system starving the boiler of water shutting the burner down. Removed circulation pump discovered from the Radiator(s) side of the pump 'nothing' from the boiler side 'Gushing (black coloured water)'.

Reverse fitted the pump to circulate the water the other way around, No Joy. Still nothing coming from the Radiator side of the pump.

With the pump removed and isolation valves operated in sequence Attached Garden Hose 'mains water pressure' to copper pipe fitted Radiator side of pump. No Joy. Removed and refitted Garden hose to Heating drain Valve fitted to boiler side of pump. Forced water into system through boiler hoping to the see water come through the return 'radiator' side of the pump. No sign of water coming through the return pipe but notice water level rising in the expansion Tank (above the hot water cylinder). Did a bit of reading which said plug the F&E pipes. Did this and continued to force water into the system via the system drain valve. Clyinder made a noise like a pop (as if you were pushing out a dent in a panel), 'bobbed myself' and stopped the process.

Am I on the right lines ?????? blocking the F&E pipes and ignore the 'deforming' noises??

Thought the Hot Water would be sorted by the immersion heater. After having the thing on for 6 hours went up to check the tank, stone cold. Checked voltage to the element 'dead' . Thought maybe a wire had come lose from the back of the switch only to discover that wires come up from the fuse board. But, no wires leading from the switch upto the element. A very pretty neon light comes on.

Once again am I on the right lines ?????? blocking the F&E pipes and ignore the 'deforming' noises?? Just looking for a little guidance to get family life back to a level of normality.

Cheers

 

[CH4]

It would be better to drain the system, move the radiators outside and flush them individually (while slapping them with a rubber mallet to dislodge the sludge).

Alternatively, you may be able to flush them in-situ using two hoses (the second hose to carry the exhaust water outside). Swapping the hoses over on each radiator (to flush in both directions) might improve the result, but could be messier. It may be more convenient and effective to hire a Power-Flush machine, as many have valves for reversing the flow, without having to disconnect and reconnect the hoses each time. Flush the pipework sections in a similar way.

When you refill, be sure to bleed all the air form the system (especially the pump) and add corrosion inhibitor.

 

[bodger67]

Feel for you, mate. My boiler quit yesterday - no chance of a fix until Tuesday at best.

Be aware that BG may lose interest in your problems if they don't do the power flushing. This happened to a relative recently after BG refused to change a pump for the same reason. Not sure of their reasoning or what the small print says but they only caved once they saw a bill from a CORGI regd firm.

 

[Beano1967]

Thanks for the feedback guys. My plan of attack was to drain the system, remove each Rad (10 Rads Total) and flush. Once all reconnected power flush and treat the system. Ref my first post, am I still safe blocking (or looping) the F&E pipes?? that noise I heard made me very edgy!!

Also, regarding the illusive BG. About 8mths ago they replaced the circulation pump. I have read that this work is classed as a partial system breakdown and as such good practice is to add inhibitor when refilling / topping up the system. I know that isolation valves are fitted either side of the of the pump but I am aware that a substantail amount of water was drained out of the system, as part of this replacement, into the floor space below my house. No Inhibitor was added! Is this practice correct?? As I am paying a handsome premium for professional cover 'in the black arts of plumbing' should I raise this point with BG? and how do I deal with their response?

Once again many thanks and please keep the advice / assistance coming.

Cheers
Richard (Into my 4th Day of Complete System Failure)

p.s. In a rush this morning and snapped my shoelace. My youngest looked at me and asked if I was going out in the car today could I give her a ring to make sure I got there OK because I'm not having a lot of luck at the moment (oh from the mouths of babes ..... )

 

[ChrisR]

If yours is a one pipe system you could have a valve stuck shut at the pump or either end of a rad. Trv's do it too. Have the rads got bypasses?

Do not ignore the popping noice - I've see a HW cyl with the bottom convex instead of concave. (Bashed it back in on a stone cannonball thing and it's been ok for years!)

DO be sure you haven't got a valve shut - in the above case it was a gate valve.

You can run a (new) immersion heater off a thick flex plugged in somewhere, for a bit.

 

[Beano1967]

Keep it coming, keep it coming ...........

Now I've seen several diagrams of one pipe systems. Some showing a Radiators spurred off a single pipe run using tee peices, others showing radiators forming part of a continuos circuit (pipe in one end, out the other to the next radiator).

Yes, there are TRVs fitted to 4 of the 10 radiators and I had started to consider that should one fail (remain closed) then, should each radiator form part of the inline circuit, eveything after the faulty valve would be starved of flowing water.

But, I discounted the idea of Rads forming part of a inline, sequential circuit as being absurd ... what are peoples understanding od a single pipe system ?? Rads tee'd off a single pipe or Rads connected in sequence via a length of pipe??

I'd appreciate some thoughts.

p.s. thanks, I thought I was right to be edgy. But that must be one heck of a block to produce that sort of back pressure!!

 

[Beano1967]

Its not looking good folks. In fact its looking Decidedly expensive.

Been advised by BG that system (Primatic) can be flushed for an extortionate fee. Advised by local plumbers with Power flushing Experience its a none starter. New System total rip out.

Can anyone provide a definitive answer and/ or recommend anyone in NW/Greater Manchester Area.

Cheers

 

[kevplumb]

if you powerflush the system the primatic will have to be isolated

 

[Beano1967]

Thanks for that Kevplumb.

I'm now under the opinion that this is a job for the professional plumber. BUt, I'm also very weary of being sold a Chocolate Fire Guard because I'm being given so many conflicting points of view.

I've read Primatic system block / loop the F&E pipes in the header tank. Don't block / loop the F&E. What does isolating the Primatic mean and involve? partial drain down? disconnecting fittings from the cylinder?

My Cylinder has a small 'header' tank attached on top. With a tank feed pipe located at its base and a returning vent pipe on top. Doesn't look like any primatic cyclinder I've ever come across.

 

[ChrisR]

Eh? Does the cylinder say Primatic ON IT?

 

[Beano1967]

No ..

 

[bobb]

I've just discovered, with help from this forum, that I have a Primatic. Mine has a small cold water tank on top and is not marked "Primatic" that I can see.

Knowing what I now know, I'm changing it for a conventional hot water cylinder and fitting a sealed system kit. Primatics seem to be a problem for life and I'm cutting my losses.

 

[Beano1967]

Good Call. I'm currently saving the ackers up for a complete system refit when I hope to be done away with troublesome cylinders by fitting a combi.

Meanwhile, I'm going to run the thing into the ground