Considering Boiler upgrade

[dormermike]

Hi,

I am considering options for replacement for an old boiler. And before I call someone in to give advice, i've been searching the internet for options.


The boiler is an Ideal Mexico floor standing boiler in a downstairs room "boiler room", about 15 radiators (x2 in conservatory), vented system, hot water cylinder, coldwater tank (large) and central heating expansation tank (smaller one) in a upstairs room (laundry room). System is a honeywell Y plan installed around 1994 and in good overall condition.

The laundry room is about the size of a box room though the cylinders etc take up a lot of space. This room is located at the mid-point of the bungalow and reasonably close to downstairs bathroom and next to upstairs bathroom. The boiler room is downstairs next to the downstairs bathroom.

Everything works well apart from hot water taking a long time to reach tap in the kitchen due to a long run (takes over 60 seconds). The boiler is 36.6kw and the hot water cylinder is 170l. The hotwater cylinder and header tank currently supply a power shower which is not working (motor dead). All central heating pipework to radiators is 10mm and in good condition (installed 1994). The boiler room is reasonably large, is installed on the outside wall (which has a drain on the other side) and also has gas services coming into it (as well as electric).

My requirements of sorts are that the replacement would free up the space in the laundry room by doing away with all or some of the cylinder/tanks.

A "nice to have" would be hot water at mains pressure (or better than current gravity fed system).

A really nice to have would be the possibility for secondary heating compatibility such as solar or wood burner etc.

I'm not too keen on combi boilers as i like having a hot water cylinder and with two small nippers they have regular baths.

I've seen a boiler type which has a cylinder incorporated into it - would this allow me to basically house everything in the downstairs boiler room which is next to the downstairs bathroom?

The only issue I can imagine (in my uneducated in these matters mind) is the already slow hot tap in the kitchen taking even longer, as the hot water would be coming from further away..

Sorry for the long post, I thought providing all the info might be helpful.

Thanks
Mike

 

[dormermike]

Thank you! That looks ideal. Are they generally reliable? I dont want to be paying for repairs every year for example.

Wonder what it would cost to install it.. hmm

 

[mickyg]

it sounds like you set your mind on a store combi. Its still a combi at the end of the day remember, it just produces a more hot water than at a higher rate than an average combi. You can get smaller store combis like the vaillant 937, worcester 550 ? i think(not hot on WB products) and the Glowworm ultracom store. Then you have bigger units like the 222f that the Viessmann employee above has suggested, Glowworm do the Ultrapower sxi which is very similar and cheaper.
Thing is .. you said you would like to add solar or wood burning at some stage? this isn't ideal boiler type for this setup. Unless you buy an ATAG solar Q which is an amazing bit of kit but its massive and expensive. Both wood and solar would be more suited to having a dedicated cylinder or thermal store. I would think more carefully about this wood/solar idea before investing in a boiler.

 

[dormermike]

Hmm good point

Solar/wood is just an "idea" at the moment, basically I want whatever investment I make to be flexible enough to accept alternative heat sources in future. This is not a firm requirement, but certainly would be good to have.

I had considered a heat store - and indeed am open to this - i just need to weigh up all the options.

It seems to me, perhaps unfairly/incorrectly - that if I get a company in to quote and advise, i'll just be getting whatever they peddle, whereas I want to start with effectively a clean slate. I would retain as much as possible of the original heating system, where practical. Pipework at least. Freeing up the laundry room would be awesome.

I guess a heatstore needs a home somewhere though right..

 

[Faceache]

What about the Viessmann 242? Similar to 222 but has a solar coil for use at a later date.

 

[mickyg]

What about the Viessmann 242? Similar to 222 but has a solar coil for use at a later date.

yes this is the same as the atag qsolar i think, although the qsolar will use solar heated water for heating and hot water. im not sure if the viessmann does the same?
as for the op, i think a thought in to how serious you are about solar or wood burning or both or neither. This needs to be a yes or no on both counts before setting out with the new boiler. Save problems or dissapointment further down the line.
and yes a heat store needs a home im afraid !

 

[dormermike]

Thanks everyone

Been doing a lot of research on the Internet.

Have decided against supplementary heatsource, however a backup/secondary heat source (eg electric/immersion) is necessary.

A heatsource needs a annual service from what I can tell, so that rules that out for me.

A combi with integrated water cylinder seems the best of both worlds - assuming they have an immersion built in?

I may get some local firms in to quote and advise but in the meantime any further info or opinions would be great.

Cheers.

 

[dormermike]

I think i'll get a few quotes in - i'll post back findings.

 

[ianniann]

Thanks everyone

Been doing a lot of research on the Internet.

Have decided against supplementary heatsource, however a backup/secondary heat source (eg electric/immersion) is necessary.

A heatsource needs a annual service from what I can tell, so that rules that out for me.

A combi with integrated water cylinder seems the best of both worlds - assuming they have an immersion built in?

I may get some local firms in to quote and advise but in the meantime any further info or opinions would be great.

Cheers.

A standard gas boiler should also be serviced each year, although many people don't.

Storage combis generally don't include an immersion heater. This is a feature that can be found with separate cylinders although it is much less common these days. Maybe someone can suggest one. Also, the internal storage capacity is not usually enough for even one shower without the boiler supplementing it.

 

[muggles]

A heatsource needs a annual service from what I can tell, so that rules that out for me

A new boiler will also need an annual service, as it's a condition of the manufacturer's warranty whichever one you choose. You should really be getting your current boiler serviced annually as well.


I may be missing something here, but I don't quite see why you want to replace your existing boiler. The Mexico is not a bad boiler, and if you look after it it'll give you good service for a long time yet. A new one will be a bit more efficient, but not so much so that it'll ever pay for itself.

You say that your boiler room is reasonably large, why not simply move the hot water cylinder into it, to stand next to the boiler? If you want mains-pressure hot water you could either add a pump to the existing cylinder or, subject to a good incoming mains supply, have an unvented one fitted instead. This could have a secondary coil incorporated if you decide you want to go down the solar route (which, incidentally, will also never pay for itself unless you can get a grant to have it installed, and may even end up costing you more money long-term than not having it). A woodburner will also be expensive to keep going unless you have a ready supply of wood.

You can improve the speed hot water gets to the taps by having a secondary return installed, which would use a pump to circulate the hot water around your house, giving you near-instant hot water at every outlet. The increase in pressure from a pumped or mains system would also speed up delivery times, although the amount of water you run away would of course still be the same without the secondary return installed.

The decision to have, or not have, any of the above (new boiler, solar, wood burner) will of course come down to your priorities as much as anything. If you want the cheapest option, both in terms of installation costs and running costs, then keep your existing boiler and move/update your cylinder, either with a pump or an unvented cylinder, and forget about solar and woodburners. If you don't care about the money and are instead basing your decision on some dubious notion that you're helping to save the planet, then there may be a case for a new boiler/woodburner/solar system/living in a mud hut.

Unless I've missed something?

 

[dormermike]

A heatsource needs a annual service from what I can tell, so that rules that out for me

A new boiler will also need an annual service, as it's a condition of the manufacturer's warranty whichever one you choose. You should really be getting your current boiler serviced annually as well.


I may be missing something here, but I don't quite see why you want to replace your existing boiler. The Mexico is not a bad boiler, and if you look after it it'll give you good service for a long time yet. A new one will be a bit more efficient, but not so much so that it'll ever pay for itself.

You say that your boiler room is reasonably large, why not simply move the hot water cylinder into it, to stand next to the boiler? If you want mains-pressure hot water you could either add a pump to the existing cylinder or, subject to a good incoming mains supply, have an unvented one fitted instead. This could have a secondary coil incorporated if you decide you want to go down the solar route (which, incidentally, will also never pay for itself unless you can get a grant to have it installed, and may even end up costing you more money long-term than not having it). A woodburner will also be expensive to keep going unless you have a ready supply of wood.

You can improve the speed hot water gets to the taps by having a secondary return installed, which would use a pump to circulate the hot water around your house, giving you near-instant hot water at every outlet. The increase in pressure from a pumped or mains system would also speed up delivery times, although the amount of water you run away would of course still be the same without the secondary return installed.

The decision to have, or not have, any of the above (new boiler, solar, wood burner) will of course come down to your priorities as much as anything. If you want the cheapest option, both in terms of installation costs and running costs, then keep your existing boiler and move/update your cylinder, either with a pump or an unvented cylinder, and forget about solar and woodburners. If you don't care about the money and are instead basing your decision on some dubious notion that you're helping to save the planet, then there may be a case for a new boiler/woodburner/solar system/living in a mud hut.

Unless I've missed something?

No, you have hit the nail squarely on the head for one side of my bipolar brain lol.

I didnt even realise i could upgrade current system to unvented but of course that makes sense.

Making the current system more efficient may help... I have no room thermostat currently and plan to fit one. Ecpansion tank is.not lagged and nor are the pipes. None of the rads are balanced.

 

[muggles]

If you do go for the unvented option you need to make sure your mains can handle it, your installer can check this, the efficiency ideas you suggest are good and well worth investigating. Also look at increasing the amount of insulation in your loft, a few rolls of this http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wc...14258164&c_1=1|category_root|ecohome|16849228 will do wonders