Construction drawings

[Muckiest of pups]

A question for Architects and builders. I've started doing construction plans for domestic alterations and the examples I work to include lots of detail i.e. Cavity will be made of X,Y,Z to meet a u-value of .... this is often in notes along with a detail drawing. However, my dad who is a PM and used to do this work has advised me to keep it basic i.e cavity wall to current regs u-value X. His reasoning is 1) don't tell a builder how to build 2) don't put your ass on the line 3) it takes more time/ costs customer more, so keep it sweet and simple, letting the builder chose his preferred method. SO, do builders prefer basics or do you prefer the details? And do architects offer different levels of details for different costs? 1) basic building reg notes 2) specific details for a customer/ builder who ask for specifics from the start or 3) always do a basic, and wait until further information is requested...and if so do you usually charge for this extra spec or is it already included? What do you prefer? - thanks in advance.

 

[garyo]

Are the drawings solely to pass building regs or do you want to use them to get comparative quotes from builders and form a contract with the chosen builder, or have you simply not decided and want to keep your options open?

 

[^woody^]

It's a classic sign of a lazy clueless designer when the drawings lack the actual detail required to price and build the thing.

Your dad is wrong on all his advice. It's your job as the designer to design and specify your client's requirements. It's not the builders job to scratch his head wondering what the drawings mean, and it's not right that the builder charges the client extra for the time and messing about due to crap drawings.

Unfortunately, this is the poor standard that is becoming more and more prevalent nowadays.

 

[Muckiest of pups]

Hi Garyo, from the customers I've had so far it's a very mixed bag. For building regs I did a basic layout, and the council requested more information then took ages, we eventually got a call back saying that the original drawings were fine and they were sorry it took so long with their contracted agent to process, and we got a new agent. - so I'm confused from that experience. Then from the customers I've had since, their first builder asked for lots of spec information from the start but before the drawings were even started the customer said he'd pulled out and their new builder was more than happy to work without all the specs asked previously, so I just had to get the steels for him. If this is just the way business is and it's always a mixed bag then I'll just have to assess individually with future customers, but I am just looking for a different perspective from my dads and my confusing experiences so far. I will be providing customers with all the types you mentioned. I'm just wondering if there's a standard process for other designers? Or do they automatically do different levels for those different types?

 

[tony1851]

the examples I work to include lots of detail

Do you know anything about building construction, or are you picking this up as you go along by copying examples?

 

[Muckiest of pups]

It's a classic sign of a lazy clueless designer when the drawings lack the actual detail required to price and build the thing.

Your dad is wrong on all his advice. It's your job as the designer to design and specify your client's requirements. It's not the builders job to scratch his head wondering what the drawings mean, and it's not right that the builder charges the client extra for the time and messing about due to crap drawings.

Unfortunately, this is the poor standard that is becoming more and more prevalent nowadays.

Thanks for the reply woody, so in your advice to do detailed drawings would you suggest that I try to pin down a busy builder to discuss how he would prefer to construct it (as there's a million ways to do something and the customer usually doesn't know) or the alternative being I just spec it regardless of the builders preferred method or what materials he may have more readily available? And run the risk of the clients project becoming more expensive due to the builder trying to meet my personal spec. The builders I've worked with so far are great, but they are very busy and seem to prefer a basic drawing for their construction freedom, bar from the inexperienced builder who wanted all the info. But as I say, my experience is limited which is why I'm asking. Are you a builder or designer?

 

[tony1851]

Thanks for the reply woody......... Are you a builder or designer?

We've all wondered about that for years

 

[Muckiest of pups]

It's a classic sign of a lazy clueless designer when the drawings lack the actual detail required to price and build the thing.

Your dad is wrong on all his advice. It's your job as the designer to design and specify your client's requirements. It's not the builders job to scratch his head wondering what the drawings mean, and it's not right that the builder charges the client extra for the time and messing about due to crap drawings.

Unfortunately, this is the poor standard that is becoming more and more prevalent nowadays.

Thanks for the reply woody, so in your advice to do detailed drawings would you suggest that I try to pin down a busy builder to discuss how he would prefer to construct it (as there's a million ways to do something and the customer usually doesn't know) or the alternative being I just spec it regardless of the builders preferred method or what materials he may have more readily available? And run the risk of the clients project becoming more expensive due to the builder trying to meet my personal spec. The builders I've worked with so far are great, but they are very busy and seem to prefer a basic drawing for their construction freedom, bar from the inexperienced builder who wanted all the info. But as I say, my experience is limited which is why I'm asking. Are you a builder or designer?

Hi tony, I'm a part 1 architect, but I didn't like all the arty bit, I prefer the construction but found my uni education lacking. Which is why I have chosen to take this route. I've started with a few customers and they're all happy so far following my dads advice, however seeing the online examples they're all far more detailed, thus the confusion.

 

[tony1851]

but I didn't like all the arty bit,

Great - welcome to the club!!!!; too many dabble with the airy-fairy bits but don't know the difference between a block and a beam.

For building regs, inspectors vary widely on the amount of info. they require on the drawings, so difficult to suggest what level of detail/notes is required. Over time, you get used to knowing what individual inspectors look for. Remember that they have to find something because it then makes it look as though they are doing their jobs.

I think it's a question of give and take; you do a detail, and if a builder suggests a different way, consider if his way might be equally valid (even if it's cheaper) and go with that if he prefers to do it that way.

Tip of the day: where possible, try and use a private firm of building inspectors. In the long run, they will give you far less hassle than the LABC bods. I changed to private a few years ago, and life actually became liveable again.

 

[Muckiest of pups]

Thanks Tony, that's great advice. So overall you would suggest I do more detail to start with but maybe factor in a cost/time incase the builder wants an alternative detail? Thanks for your help

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

We've all wondered about that for years

Or a planning consultant perhaps?

 

[^woody^]

so in your advice to do detailed drawings would you suggest that I try to pin down a busy builder to discuss how he would prefer to construct it

No.

You take your clients wishes, turn that into a solution that conforms to planning regulations or any other criteria or constraint, and then design and specify drawings that any builder uses to quote from, and then build from - following your design and specification precisely.

What the builder prefers is irrelevant unless he is doing a design and build. He's a builder he builds. You are the designer you design.

Apart from some other things, you don't seem to grasp that there are contractual issues at play here.

The client has instructed you to design for them. They are also expecting to use your drawings as a basis for a contract between them and a builder. They are expecting your drawings to be accurate and suitable for the builder to give them an accurate quote, and to keep to the design and the quotation.

They are not expecting the builder to hit them with a load of variations and extra costs because they need to deviate from the drawings.

And yes any old plan monkey can do a half-arsed plan to get through building regs. But if that is your business model, then IMO you should explain that to your clients and charge accordingly. But that's not designing and it's certainly not architectural design. It's more like taking money under false pretences.

I'm surprised that you are Part 1. What are they teaching nowadays?

Sorry to be harsh, but you need to modify your thinking now before you become just another monkey with a clipboard and CAD programme.

 

[tomfe]

Take it like getting a flat pack from Ikea, some people will be happy just looking at the picture and others will want step by step instructions.
I for one would want a full spec to give a builder, I can't see how a builder would complain if it was standard construction and not something unusual. So if you spec 150mm cavity with brick outer block inner there's not skin off their back.

 

[^woody^]

Or a planning consultant perhaps?

And to the northerner.

 

[Muckiest of pups]

You're not being harsh at all, this is why I'm here asking I don't want to be another CAD monkey, which is what I feel my dads method is pushing me towards, but at the same time I don't want to be an arse telling a more experienced builder how to build, as you say I'm a designer, I should design. He's the builder. For example, my latest customer (garage conversion/ kitchen knockthru) wanted his garage floor raised to match his kitchen +340mm, builder originally suggested pouring concrete, whereas on site I suggested a floating floor due to the fact it's easier to revert back if need be, and he took my advice on it. He was obviously more comfortable (i.e. Will probably be cheaper) to do a solid floor. I'm not always lucky enough to meet the builder first or have a good discussion about it. Therefore where I drew up sand blinding, dpm, 22mm T&g and all the rest of it, my fathers arguement was 'why are you, a fresh out of uni designer, telling an experienced builder how to build?' And he advised me to simply state floor level to match existing, including dpm and thermal upgrades to u-value X, and that the builder will have greater knowledge on pricing and what is relevant for the site conditions. - there's no wrong answers, I'm just asking for a majority opinion from people who have been in the trade longer than I have. And for your question about uni, I went there with a measuring tape and my laser and my survey kit, our first lesson was to pick up a charcoal and do a life drawing.....I understand why that art bit is important NOW. But i don't want to do skyscrapers, I like working on houses, probably should have become and architectural technician instead. But hey ho.