Cowboy Electricians!

[actiongirl5]

Hi,

I recently posted a query on here about the installation of a bathroom extractor fan and after going back to my electrician that I found through "My Builder" and expressing how underwhelmed I was with the fan and I was worried about how he had vented it I think I may have found the answer to both.

The electrician came out the property on Wednesday and he mooched around in the loft and replaced the 85m3/hour fan with one that extracts 110m3/hour of which he then told me I would then have to give in another £45 if I wanted to keep it. So I tested it out and after 3 minutes of running the shower in a bathroom that is warm and barely big enough to swing a cat around it was like a sauna. So I told him to remove it as it didn't really make any difference at all. On him leaving I found out the over run on the fan he had reset was left at the maximum of 1 hour so I called him to find out how to adjust this. He was really adamant that I he could do it and really didn't want me up in the loft.............but I now know why.

I am good level DIYer and I can do most things if told what to do so I went up into the loft space and go down on to the floor and I can see why he didn't want me to look what he had done up there. Originally he had butted the external grill of the fan up against the eaves where the gap is not big enough to vent such a thing. So what he had done he had removed the external grill and wedged the bare ducting to try and force it through the eaves with nothing on the end of if. To me the ducting now appears crushed and he had also attempted to hide the grill he had pulled off in the loose fill insulation but I had seen a corner of it sticking up.

I am sure this can't be within building regs to do this can it? I was always told that when you vent anything that extracts moisture it needs to vented externally and away from the building. Also the ducting is not run through any insulation and was run over loft board without any form of insulation to stop the acts of condensation.

The safest method would be to roof vent this fan but does anyone on here know a ball park figure for the installation of one.

Thanks in advance

Mandy

 

[ricicle]

Is there no gable end that the fan can vent through as this would be easier than out through the roof ?

 

[actiongirl5]

Is there no gable end that the fan can vent through as this would be easier than out through the roof ?

I am afraid not as that would have been my best option.

 

[Lectrician]

Did he actually quote you for anything? I would always advise to go for a decent fan such as a National Ventilation Monsoon. This has a good 180ish m/3 per hour.

I would also always use rigid duct, not flexi, where possible. This achieves a far better negative pressure. It certainly sounds like it needs venting through a slate/tile.

Duct should ideally be insulated, although, a condensation trap can be fitted to rigid duct and fed outside with standard 22mm overflow pipe.

Flexi duct in a cold loft with a high capacity fan will fill with moisture quickly.

You are unlikely to be able to remove all the "steam".

 

[ericmark]

Electricians are taught how to do electrics but after that point we all work in different fields most of my life was industrial and as such if I was to erect pipe work likely it would cause a strike.

So when I did some domestic being given a core drill my question was what's that for and being told to work off a ladder I was dismayed I had been taught ladders were for access you work off scaffold or staging never off a ladder.

You may have simply selected a guy who was not skilled in the allied trades. What he should have done was sub-contract the work he was not trained to do.

Part F of the Building Regulations does lay out what is required. It does say to be carried out with proper materials and in a workmanlike manner. But as one reads on for a bathroom extract rate is 15l/s which is all well and good but how does one measure 15l/s? Other bits are a little easier it states diameter of 100mm or cross sectional area of 8000mm² which seems a little odd as 100 diameter = 7854mm² but near enough I suppose.

The problem is of course to extract air then air must also get into the building which raises problems with any open flue fires see Part J. Also Part L comes in and this seems to lean toward heat recovery units. So if the guy is to follow regulations by the letter including HSE guide lines the £100 job to fit a fan becomes a £1000 job with scaffold and ducting with full heat recovery unit installed. It is very hard to criticise some one who has done work from another trade and got it wrong. In the main when I have looked at extractor fans which are not doing the job required it's not the extract at fault but the lack of vents to feed in the fresh air.

I would have thought this job was for a heating and ventilation guy. You said found through “My Builder” so likely this guy when working for a builder did nothing but the electrics and was caught out when asked to do other work.

 

[actiongirl5]

Electricians are taught how to do electrics but after that point we all work in different fields most of my life was industrial and as such if I was to erect pipe work likely it would cause a strike.

So when I did some domestic being given a core drill my question was what's that for and being told to work off a ladder I was dismayed I had been taught ladders were for access you work off scaffold or staging never off a ladder.

You may have simply selected a guy who was not skilled in the allied trades. What he should have done was sub-contract the work he was not trained to do.

Part F of the Building Regulations does lay out what is required. It does say to be carried out with proper materials and in a workmanlike manner. But as one reads on for a bathroom extract rate is 15l/s which is all well and good but how does one measure 15l/s? Other bits are a little easier it states diameter of 100mm or cross sectional area of 8000mm² which seems a little odd as 100 diameter = 7854mm² but near enough I suppose.

The problem is of course to extract air then air must also get into the building which raises problems with any open flue fires see Part J. Also Part L comes in and this seems to lean toward heat recovery units. So if the guy is to follow regulations by the letter including HSE guide lines the £100 job to fit a fan becomes a £1000 job with scaffold and ducting with full heat recovery unit installed. It is very hard to criticise some one who has done work from another trade and got it wrong. In the main when I have looked at extractor fans which are not doing the job required it's not the extract at fault but the lack of vents to feed in the fresh air.

I would have thought this job was for a heating and ventilation guy. You said found through “My Builder” so likely this guy when working for a builder did nothing but the electrics and was caught out when asked to do other work.

It is like anything you take on if you believe it is well beyond your experience or skills you don't touch it....simple as! I would not go into someone's house vent an extractor fan with an external grill internally and then try and cover up or bodge the job when a customer expresses concern.........you do not need to be an electrician to know that just an ounce of common sense and some morals.

Rising warm moist air in a confined space breeds mould and damp which in turn could mean a hefty roofing bill for some poor unexpected person.

I was told by several tradesmen it is an electrician I need to install a basic fan for a tiny bathroom which is no bigger than to fit a toilet, bath and basin. If the fan was slow at extracting I could replace that myself but no one relishes the thought of several years down the line replacing a rotten room because some tradesmen thought butting an external vent internally at the eaves was a bright idea.

Two words come to mind, dishonest for trying to hide the fact that he had removed the grill and crushed the ducting to half its size leaving it bare and exposed. Then on top of that burying the grill in the eaves to hide the evidence. Secondly no common sense for a trade he has been doing for over 15 years, see bodge jobs, fitting hundreds of extractor fans, etc. I am a good level DIYer and you don't need to be a heating expert to know the basics especially when we live in the age of the internet.

I have to say I would have sought a heating expert if I was running a commercial building or some 7 bedroom house but for a 2 bedroom mid terrace I would find that a tad overkill.

 

[rjm2k]

These are the kind of things that make me prefer to do as much as I can myself in my own home!

 

[actiongirl5]

These are the kind of things that make me prefer to do as much as I can myself in my own home!

Hi,

I would give most things ago as I am very competent but if I have that small amount of doubt in my mind that I am unsure I never wing it. If you do that is when it could get dangerous and not just for you but for others living in the house especially when it concerns electrics. Plus it is having the time, with work and stuff I thought this was the easier option....clearly I was wrong.

However I do not what you mean and now with the wonders of the internet you can figure out to do most things to maintain or improve a house.

 

[ericmark]

I think the electrician was wrong he should have sub-contracted work he could not do himself.

But it's like the Newspaper head lines when they say Plumber caught speeding what the heck had it to do with him being a Plumber?

What worries me however is how it can escalate. My first thought was report him and then I looked at what for. I would like others to comment on this but can't see an electrical scheme provider being interested in non electrical work which the electrician has got wrong.

What I also can't understand is why a builder recommended an electrician to do work which was really their job?

The other bit that does not make sense is even if the duct is reduced from 8000m² to 4000m² it should still make an effect even if not enough but you say "it didn't really make any difference at all" which makes me think there is something missed.

So what vents are there delivering fresh air into the room? One can run a fan giving a 50hPa depression but unless there is a way for air to enter the room it will do nothing. I have before tested a extract fan with sheet of paper which it sucked hard onto the extract grill and I thought this works well. But when using shower the door was closed but when I tested door was open and with door closed it did nothing.

Don't get me wrong there is clearly a fault with the job, but there is something else as well as the story does not make sense as told, there has to be something missed as it should have improved things even if not enough.

 

[Johnmelad]

But it's like the Newspaper head lines when they say Plumber caught speeding what the heck had it to do with him being a Plumber

A plumber moving at speed, that would make headline news.

 

[bernardgreen]

A plumber moving at speed, that would make headline news.

They moved pretty fast between customer and the bank.......

 

[Johnmelad]

A plumber moving at speed, that would make headline news.

They moved pretty fast between customer and the bank.......

You gona have a Fatwa put out on you now.

 

[actiongirl5]

I think the electrician was wrong he should have sub-contracted work he could not do himself.

But it's like the Newspaper head lines when they say Plumber caught speeding what the heck had it to do with him being a Plumber?

What worries me however is how it can escalate. My first thought was report him and then I looked at what for. I would like others to comment on this but can't see an electrical scheme provider being interested in non electrical work which the electrician has got wrong.

What I also can't understand is why a builder recommended an electrician to do work which was really their job?

The other bit that does not make sense is even if the duct is reduced from 8000m² to 4000m² it should still make an effect even if not enough but you say "it didn't really make any difference at all" which makes me think there is something missed.

So what vents are there delivering fresh air into the room? One can run a fan giving a 50hPa depression but unless there is a way for air to enter the room it will do nothing. I have before tested a extract fan with sheet of paper which it sucked hard onto the extract grill and I thought this works well. But when using shower the door was closed but when I tested door was open and with door closed it did nothing.

Don't get me wrong there is clearly a fault with the job, but there is something else as well as the story does not make sense as told, there has to be something missed as it should have improved things even if not enough.

Hi

There are no air bricks in the bathroom, but a generous sized gap under the door and there is always a window open in my bedroom which is adjacent to the bathroom. Plus we have also tried leaving the window slightly ajar to get a little more air flow in the bathroom and so far non of the two seem to have worked.