Crimea and Scottish Referenda

[Hysteresis]

Why does the West consider the Crimean referendum illegal under international Law but accepts the Scottish Independence referendum as acceptable???.

Crimea votes to ally itself with Russia and not Ukraine as Scottish folk vote to ally themselves to Europe and not Great Britain.

If Crimea wants to be ruled by Putin, who are we to object. Similarly the Scots.

Whats the difference.

Seems like double standards to me.

 

[3DGuy]

Why does the West consider the Crimean referendum illegal under international Law but accepts the Scottish Independence referendum as acceptable???.

Crimea votes to ally itself with Russia and not Ukraine as Scottish folk vote to ally themselves to Europe and not Great Britain.

If Crimea wants to be ruled by Putin, who are we to object. Similarly the Scots.

Whats the difference.

Seems like double standards to me.

I'm not expert and this is probably a stupid reply as i'm not thinking straight and taking 2 mins from a brain ache project but, Scotland is classed as a country. Isn't Crimea like the equivalent of a County (ie Gloucester - on a larger scale) not a county to Ukrane? Or is Ukrane made up of separate countries etc?

So it's more the case of it cant just be voted away as its not a country as such but an area or territory.

So this is a extract -

Ukraine is a unitary state composed of 24 oblasts (provinces), one autonomous republic (Crimea) and two cities with special status: Kiev, its capital and largest city and Sevastopol,

An autonomous republic is a type of administrative division similar to a province or state.

So even though classed as autonomous its still part of a country, not a country in it's self to be able to separate from the main body etc.

Just a thought so not entirely double standards based on this I don't think. Going by that way the entire UK could split each county in to independent "counties" or technically Warwick could want to join France and then we would have a chunk of France in the middle of the UK if you get my drift. Sorry if its a crude example but its just how I have interpreted the situation.

Also the Vote wasn't Yes or no to join Russia. It was basically would you like to join Russia A = Yes or B = Yes

So it isn't really democratic in regards they didn't have a choice really either way if its not or later.

 

[ladylola]

Maybe a better analogy would be Kosovo which wasn't a seperate country but a province of Serbia inhabited largely by Albanians . Ok so there wasn't a referendum but did NATO , the EU and America uphold Serbia's sovereignty ? And how much complaining and sanctions have come from Israel's annexation of Arab lands?

 

[Hysteresis]

I'm not sure abut this one although I do see the Country/County analogy.
England was once sort of separate 'countries' with their own kings ie Wessex Northumbria etc which were eventually integrated into a greater England. My understanding of it all was that Scotland and Wales in the same way were integrated into Britain with the same government, currency,laws and a Scottish King ruling over it all ie James VI of Scotland became James I of Britain. In the integration process Scotland, England and Wales became effectively Groups of Counties in Britain and as such similar to Crimea. Crimea was 'given' to Ukraine by Russia's Kruschev and as such Crimea is similar to Scotland although Scotland has been part of Britain for 300 years and in many ways ruled Britain judging by the total integration of Scottish MP's, further promoting the concept of Scotland England and Wales being groups of counties of Britain.
Or have I got my concept of the integration of Britain wrong?
It seems that the Braveheart mentality of Salmond is driving the break up of Britain, but want all the good bits and non of the Bad(I digress).
So with this analogy Scotland is the same as Crimea - or is it.

 

[Corgigrouch]

The referendum in Scotland is taking place following consultation with both the UK government and the Scottish parliament and an amicable agreement has been made about how the referendum will be conducted.

The referendum in Crimea took place following a foreign invasion from a neighbouring country. The region was siezed at gun point under the guise of a fabricated excuse of protectin Russian people who live in a neighbouring country.... A fair example would be for Pakistan to invade the UK and to claim Bradford as its own because a UK politician thought that Pakistani shouldn't be an official language of Britain.

Fact of the matter is that Russian troops invaded the country of Ukraine and took part of its land for itself. The Crimea originally was home to the Tatars who now live in fear of the Russians.

 

[ladylola]

Russian troops invaded the country of Ukraine and took part of its land for itself.

That's not actually true, by the way. Putin ordered in a larger contingent than was already present. But, only up to the maximum agreed limit of 25,000. Furthermore, not a single death or injury from fighting between the Russian contingent and Ukrainian forces occurred prior to or during the vote. Indeed, you may be forgiven for not knowing it, given the lack of coverage in Western media, but there is a significant revolt against the Kiev coup all across Ukraine, but particularly on its eastern flank.

 

[KenGMac]

As far as I can see, so far I may be the first Scot to post on this very highly emotive, contested, and highly complex issue.

I wonder if Putin would consider having a pop at Alaska/ after all America purchased Alaska some time ago from Russia?

There is a huge volume of media hype on all platforms, press, TV, Radio up here. Question?

How much media coverage is there on this subject in England? living up here, as above we are being saturated by media coverage, politicians on every media corner both Pro and Anti devolution.

My question for now is what coverage is this subject getting in the major English press? Local Press? local media?

As an aside did anyone listen to the radio 4 play last week as regards this subject?

As you can see I have not divulged which way I intend to vote. there was a question made up here that was, should everyone in England be asked to vote as to whether or not to let the Scots go? sub plot as previous posts, should individual Counties be given the same potential to diverge from London centric rule?

Even now many, many years after Mrs M. Thatcher was the PM hundreds of thousands of Scots saw her as the font of all evil in that he Pits closed, external influences, cheap Russian coal? the introduction of the dreaded Poll Tax, a severely HATED tax up here. Many of the heavy industries closed because of cheaper imports from other parts of the globe.

As for what currency, a no brainer, given the degree of [what is now and will be in the future] a trading area the Pound is the only way to go . Does Osborne seriously want to impose a transfer tax on any English supplier sending goods to Scotland?

What about the EU? I for one would really like to know? the present [ Spanish ] PM has stated that Scotland would not be allowed to enter the EU. BUT what about the Bask Country that is seeking devolution from Spain?

I am having a huge degree of difficulty with Cameron's stance that he will not do a TV head to head with Salmon?

Too late to waffle on about this one, despite how big it is?

 

[Corgigrouch]

Russian troops invaded the country of Ukraine and took part of its land for itself.

That's not actually true, by the way. Putin ordered in a larger contingent than was already present. But, only up to the maximum agreed limit of 25,000. Furthermore, not a single death or injury from fighting between the Russian contingent and Ukrainian forces occurred prior to or during the vote. Indeed, you may be forgiven for not knowing it, given the lack of coverage in Western media, but there is a significant revolt against the Kiev coup all across Ukraine, but particularly on its eastern flank.

Don't tell me you are one of those muppets who hangs on the every word of RT? Russia has imported troops and special forces from Russia to not only Crimea but also eastern Ukraine to whip up decent among those who live and work in the eastern region who are fearful of their livelihood.. I have seen the previous government drive Ukraine down into the ground over the last few years and the Russians are sore that their puppet Yanukovich has been sent packing....With a huge chunk of stolen cash... How do I know this? I speak to my friends who live both in Ukraine and Russia on a daily basis...

 

[ladylola]

No I simply keep an open mind and am as wary of western propaganda as I am of Russian.
I wouldn't trust Putin but it's safe to say he's outwitted the EU and the US. Both the Russians and the Crimeans invited international observers into the country to monitor this referendum but this was vetoed by the US and one can only speculate that this was because they knew what the results would be and put themselves in the embarrassing position of having to validate something they are opposed to. They have failed to provide any credible evidence of electoral fraud
It's also interesting to note that the Ukrainian navy and much of the airforce I the Crimea have "defected" to the Russians
Here's another overview
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/these-are-official-results-from.html

 

[Norcon]

When did the EU dictatorship ever respect democracy in action through referendums?

 

[Corgigrouch]

What I have noted is that this incident has polarised the views of both Russians and Ukrainians to the point where now people who have been friends for many years now won't speak to each other... My other half and I are the only link between friends.

Lola, your replies are the standard issue replies that we have heard from all of our Russian friends....You are all singing from the same propaganda sheet.

I would hardly say that Putin has outdone anyone, he simply snached a patch of land from a neighbour....Oddly enough it is prime real estate for his rich buddies to build their beach villas on.......

The Ukrainian Navy consists of several elderly Soviet vessels and it is hardly surprising that they and the cimean airforce have defected, they are after all of Russian decent and not Ukrainian.

Russia agreed to respect Ukraines borders in return for Ukraine handing over all of the Soviet nuclear weapons over to Russia.... I guess that Putin can't read to well

 

[mehran]

Corgigrouch, yeh.

Russia promised thing, the west promised things. we do something they do something.

Crimea had referendum. not a perfect one but one that amazingly does reflect what the people of Crimea wanted. I know this because they been wanting free of Ukrainian well before all this crap

Russia is reacting to what the usa was doing, prime real estate for his buddies is propaganda bullshit so is lots of other things i hear about Russia.

its a complex and messy. I don't trust anything that the news(russia and ours) tells Us. what i do know is a dispute over borders will prevent Ukrainian joining NATO. its part of the joining conditions.

that this whole thing has been engineered drive a wedge between Russia and the EU so USA can sell us NG.

And Russia has reacted more then the USA expected(or hope for). Russia back is against he wall.

 

[JBR]

...A fair example would be for Pakistan to invade the UK and to claim Bradford as its own because a UK politician thought that Pakistani shouldn't be an official language of Britain...

Well, now you mention it...

 

[Corgigrouch]

Corgigrouch, yeh.


Crimea had referendum. not a perfect one but one that amazingly does reflect what the people of Crimea wanted. I know this because they been wanting free of Ukrainian well before all this crap

Russia is reacting to what the usa was doing, prime real estate for his buddies is propaganda bulls**t so is lots of other things i hear about Russia.


that this whole thing has been engineered drive a wedge between Russia and the EU so USA can sell us NG.

The Crimea issue should have been dealt with long ago by Yeltsin....Other than being a beautiful part of the world and a huge Naval dock (Which now has been rendered useless) Crimea is a pretty useless rock... It has no resources, not even a supply of fresh water but I maintain that it will become a housing estate for the russian elite....Time will tell
Recovering Crimea has also helped Putins popularity not so long ago Russians were booing him, now he's back on top.... The point remains that he sent his troops into a neighbouring country

 

[mehran]

err...maybe sort of. Russia is allowed to have 25,000 soldiers in the area . Crimea was leaving Ukrainian one way or the other. to be honest this is better then a civil war. Rather have them open about it rather then playing silly buggers in the background.

Crimea value is in its navel base and making a bordered dispute. it prevents Ukraine joining NATO. Also it signals push back and the start of a new cold war if we don't back off.