Do I fit electrical earth clamps when pipes are hot or cold?

[JohnW2]

What reason do you have for putting an earth clamp on a piece of pipe that is separated from the rest of the pipework by plastic fittings?

Why do you want to earth your CH pipework & radiators?

One possible reason for wanting a strap across a plastic pipe joint would be to ensure that (assuming there were radiators or CH pipes in the bathroom) 701.415.2(vi) was satisfied as a part of the requirements for ommision of supplementary bonding in a bathroom. Whilst there would nearly always be parallel (pipework) paths, if someone did the same trick with a second pipe at some point in the future, those requirements might possible cease to be satisfied - so the safest course is presumably to ensure continuity across the first plastic joint inserted.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

One possible reason for wanting a strap across a plastic pipe joint would be to ensure that (assuming there were radiators or CH pipes in the bathroom) 701.415.2(vi) was satisfied as a part of the requirements for omission of supplementary bonding in a bathroom. Whilst there would nearly always be parallel (pipework) paths, if someone did the same trick with a second pipe at some point in the future, those requirements might possible cease to be satisfied - so the safest course is presumably to ensure continuity across the first plastic joint inserted

All that could be true.

However, questions like this always assume there is a yes/no answer - bond or not by describing/looking at it.

The reply should be that it needs to be measured/tested to determine whether bonding is necessary.


Martin's point was that the remaining pipework may now be isolated,
in which case, it needs measuring/testing.

Bas's was that 'earth' was used instead of 'bond'.

 

[JohnW2]

All that could be true. However, questions like this always assume there is a yes/no answer - bond or not by describing/looking at it. The reply should be that it needs to be measured/tested to determine whether bonding is necessary.

Indeed. The point of my comment was that, although they were written as questions, I interpreted (perhaps wrongly) both Martin's and BAS's questions as essentially rhetorical - implying that they didn't feel that the bonding (which many people seem to have been calling earthing) was not required. Maybe I was wrong in that interpretation.

Martin's point was that the remaining pipework may now be isolated, in which case, it needs measuring/testing.

I'm not so sure that Martin mentioned that last bit. Again, on the basis of regarding his question as rhetorical, I thought he was implying that if the pipe was isolated by the plastic joint, that it then didn't need 'earthing' (bonding) - whereas I've indicated a situation in which it might.

Bas's was that 'earth' was used instead of 'bond'.

Maybe, in which case I may have misinterpreted his meaning. If that's what he meant, he really shoudl have made some comment about the need (or lack of it) for bonding.

When having exchanges with the average OP, I'm not sure it is really necessary to get too concerned about the earthing/bonding distinction (except perhaps to mention it to them, for their education) - we all know what they mean.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

When having exchanges with the average OP, I'm not sure it is really necessary to get too concerned about the earthing/bonding distinction (except perhaps to mention it to them, for their education)

Of course it is. One is correct, one is wrong.

we all know what they mean.

We all know what 'they' mean but...
not all of us know if 'they' have got it wrong or not.

Do we continue with this 'mis-speaking' in our replies?
That will lead to no one knowing what anyone means.

 

[JohnW2]

When having exchanges with the average OP, I'm not sure it is really necessary to get too concerned about the earthing/bonding distinction (except perhaps to mention it to them, for their education)

Of course it is. One is correct, one is wrong. We all know what 'they' mean but... not all of us know if 'they' have got it wrong or not. Do we continue with this 'mis-speaking' in our replies? That will lead to no one knowing what anyone means.

This is a practical DIY forum. In the context of this thread (and similarly with many others) everyone involved, from the OP downwards, knows exactly what we are talking about - a bit of G/Y cable joining copper pipe on the two sides of an insulating section. What it is called and, indeed, an understanding its function, is not relevant to the OP. Indeed, IIRC the OP didn't even ask if he should install the cable - he merely asked about details of how it should be installed (per title of thread)

If you're right in your belief that BAS's question was actually a 'dig' at the OP (a dig which the OP would not have understood) because of incorrect use of terminology, then that surely is the antithesis of what should be happening in a DIY forum. At the very least, the error in technological terminology should be explained properly, not by rehetorical/cryptic questions/statements which would be meaningless to the forum member concerned.

You are so very lucky that you're not trying to practise medicine. If doctors, nurses and other healthcare professionals got excited, annoyed, 'educational' or 'holier than thou' every time a patient asked or answered a question using lay language/terminology which was actually 'medically incorrect', or used language/terms that they didn't fully understand, then the whole process of delivery of healthcare would grind to an immediate halt!!

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

I'm not getting 'excited', 'annoyed', 'educational' or 'holier than thou'.

We frequently get posters asking about 'sockets' when they mean 'switches' (or similar); are you saying they should not be prompted to use the proper term or that we should answer the question using the same wrong term because we and they will know what we mean.

Shall I, in future call you 'Dave' because you and I will know what we mean?

You are so very lucky that you're not trying to practise medicine. If doctors, nurses and other healthcare professionals got excited, annoyed, 'educational' or 'holier than thou' every time a patient asked or answered a question using lay language/terminology which was actually 'medically incorrect', or used language/terms that they didn't fully understand, then the whole process of delivery of healthcare would grind to an immediate halt!!

That's a bit rich.

Why do they continue to use Latin and Greek?
Call it 'inflamed liver' and we'll all know what we have.

I seem to have hit a nerve.

 

[JohnW2]

I'm not getting 'excited', 'annoyed', 'educational' or 'holier than thou'.

It was a general, not personal, comment. There are times when the discussion (usually a 'conceptual' one) requires careful distinction between earthing and bonding. If an OP merely wants to know how to connect a cable across a plastic interruption, there is absolutely no need for him/her to know what it is correctly called.

We frequently get posters asking about 'sockets' when they mean 'switches' (or similar); are you saying they should not be prompted to use the proper term or that we should answer the question using the same wrong term because we and they will know what we mean.

That's a bit different because there well could be uncertainty as to what they were talking about. However, as I said, I have no problem with 'prompting them to use the right term', so long as it is done in a pleasant and understandable fashion - rather than a (probably incomprehensible) 'dig'. Things like earthing/bonding are much more difficult, because you'd have to give a fairly complicated explanation to people who might, in some cases, not have enough underlying knowledge to be able to understand.

That's a bit rich. Why do they continue to use Latin and Greek?

You're many decades out of touch there! Of course, many technical medical terms derive from Latin, Greek or other foreign languages, but so do they in most scientific and technological disciplines - engineering being no exception.

Call it 'inflamed liver' and we'll all know what we have.

Sure, but that's a perfectly acceptable and correct medical term - so, as you say, everyone (both lay and professional) will understand what is meant. Tell a doctor that you've experienced, say, 'vertigo' or 'migraine' and there's a fair chance that you are using a medical term incorrectly. I'm trying to think of something reasonably analogous with earthing/bonding, and will let you know if I succeed

Kind Regards, John

 

[PaulIG11]

I will say that patronising and belittling people and insulting or mocking them them because they appear to have less knowledge than you (whoever 'you' are) isn't big or clever, it just makes such persons who do it appear incredibly ignorant.

If 'you' (whoever you are) can not say something helpful or constructive, then don't endulge in running people down because it achives nothing other than sew rancour in others. There is nothing big or clever in berating or insulting other people for their ignorance about any given subject: Nobody knows everything - including 'you'. What goes around comes around. I think it goes on everybody to consider the way they post and to consider if what they say or how they say it may be perceived by others {people they don't know at all}. Telling people they are STUPID - as a first comment - for even considering something 'you' (whoever you are) would not isn't a friendly way of going about helping to educate them. Try saying "I wouldn't do that because.... and then being diplomatic. It's very easy to make enemies - there is no need or purpose in becoming a keyboard warrior..... it is just a sign of social inadequacy / mental illness, an alcohol problem or just a poor upbringing.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I will say that patronising and belittling people and insulting or mocking them them because they appear to have less knowledge than you (whoever 'you' are) isn't big or clever, it just makes such persons who do it appear incredibly ignorant.

If I understand you correctly, you are accusing me of patronising, belittling, insulting or mocking John.

I am afraid you are further demonstrating an inability to understand what is going on. It's called a discussion and this is what we do.

If 'you' (whoever you are) can not say something helpful or constructive, then don't endulge in running people down because it achives nothing other than sew rancour in others. There is nothing big or clever in berating or insulting other people for their ignorance about any given subject: Nobody knows everything - including 'you'.

True but we (the forum, not you and I) are discussing 'facts' about the electrical regulations which, generally, are so badly written that there is plenty to discuss.
Disagreements are not patronising, belittling, insulting or mocking.
You do not seem to grasp this and it is you who have used truly insulting language.

What goes around comes around. I think it goes on everybody to consider the way they post and to consider if what they say or how they say it may be perceived by others {people they don't know at all}. Telling people they are STUPID - as a first comment - for even considering something 'you' (whoever you are) would not isn't a friendly way of going about helping to educate them. Try saying "I wouldn't do that because.... and then being diplomatic.

Firstly, I did not realise you would be so sensitive and had come here for a friend.
I assumed you had come for free electrical advice.

I said it was a stupid idea. It was.
I did not call you stupid but perhaps there is a reason why you chose to persist in thinking I did.

I expect Einstein had some stupid ideas from time to time.

It's very easy to make enemies - there is no need or purpose in becoming a keyboard warrior..... it is just a sign of social inadequacy / mental illness, an alcohol problem or just a poor upbringing.

There you go again. At least you didn't say my idea was stupid.


Going back to your original question; I've been thinking it is analogous to someone asking -

It's raining outside.
Could some one tell me is it safe, is it legal for me to have my barbeque in the living room?
If it is safe and legal, how big a barbeque can I have?


I see your original thread has been locked and some posts deleted.

Did I miss something even more obnoxious from you?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Bas's was that 'earth' was used instead of 'bond'.

Err - no - I wasn't trying to make a "point".

The OP used the term "earth", not "bond", so I asked him why he wanted to earth his CH pipes.

 

[JohnW2]

If I understand you correctly, you are accusing me of patronising, belittling, insulting or mocking John.

I have to say that's not how I read it. I took Paul to be commenting not on what you were doing to me, but on what you and I were discussing - namely that some people who come to this forum sometimes are unnecessarily subjected to some of those things he mentioned, simply because of their lack of knowledge - e.g. of correct terminology.

I would not think that the comment was primarily directed at yourself, since there are others around her far more practised in the art of patronising, belittling, insulting and mocking - and I personally regard you as usually being one of the more reasonable, sensible and polite people around here, and very rarely guilty of any of those things.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If you're right in your belief that BAS's question was actually a 'dig' at the OP

So now I've gone from making a point to having a dig?

And without writing anything during that journey. Amazing.

But EFLI did not say that he believed I was having a dig at the OP - this is another of your inventions.

On the whole you do not strike me as being a stupid person, but I am puzzled why you seem so prone to doing something so stupid as to look at a post and imagine you can see words which are not really there. Sometimes you have even gone as far as to decide it will be OK to take the writer of the words which are there to task because you don't like the words you have decided to pretend are there.

Never mind hepatitis, what's the medical term for inflamed imagination?

 

[JohnW2]

So now I've gone from making a point to having a dig? And without writing anything during that journey. Amazing. But EFLI did not say that he believed I was having a dig at the OP - this is another of your inventions.

It's not an invention, it's an interpretation - which it seems may have been incorrect. EFLI wrote:

Bas's [point] was that 'earth' was used instead of 'bond'

...your statement having been:

Why do you want to earth your CH pipework & radiators?

Rightly or wrongly (it now appears wrongly) I accepted EFLI's interpretation of what you had written, which was different from my original interpretation. On that basis, it appeared that you were using your 'question' to 'expose' the OP's incorrect use of terminolgy, but in a manner that the OP would not have understood. If you weren't 'making that point', then this all becomes moot (and I apologise) but if (per EFLI interpretation) you were, then whether one called it 'making a point', 'getting at', 'having a dig at' or whatever, that would (IMO) not be an approach to be proud of.

As I've been saying to EFLI, if anyone feels that the OP needs to understand the difference between earthing and bonding, then the correct and reasonable course would be for them to try to explain the difference to him, in terms that one would expect a non-electrician to understand.

Never mind hepatitis, what's the medical term for inflamed imagination?

I think you've got crossed disciplines there - inflammation is a physical phenomenon which can't really apply to a psychological (some might think spiritual!) concept

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

What ever happen to common sense ? Looks like it has been flushed away in a flood of regulations.

Regulations that are for the most part little more than a compromise between several conflicting requirements and then written in a dumbed down way that a 5 day wonder trained "electrician" can understand.

Can I connect a length of blue wire from the neutral terminal of a ring main socket to the gas meter outside my house. ?

What do the regulations say ?.

They require me to make that connection, only it must be from the MET to the gas pipe and be in green and yellow insulated wire.

The only electrical connectivity difference is that maybe the sense coil of an RCD is included when it is done with blue wire from a ring main socket.

What is most worrying is that many electricians believe that there is a distinct difference between "bonds" and "earths". There may be a different reason for the connections that bonds from the reason for the connections that are "earths" but electrically they are the same when one of the bonded items is also "earthed".

Did the writers of regulations not realise that creating an equipotential zone with bonding also exports the neutral to the outside of the property.

And don't start me on the "earthed" or "neutralised" debate.

 

[JohnW2]

Can I connect a length of blue wire from the neutral terminal of a ring main socket to the gas meter outside my house. ? What do the regulations say ?. They require me to make that connection, only it must be from the MET to the gas pipe and be in green and yellow insulated wire. The only electrical connectivity difference is that maybe the sense coil of an RCD is included when it is done with blue wire from a ring main socket.

Whilst, as you will probably imagine, I agree with the spirit of much of what you're saying, I think you would have been better off avoiding that particular 'example'! For starters ... the ring final's N conductor will have a CSA considerably smaller than that deemed necessary for primary bonding. There will be at least one switch (a CU 'main switch' or DP RCD) in the path of that bonding - operation of that switch could theoretically leave a dangerous potential between the installation's CPCs (and exposed conductive parts) and the gas pipes. Also (particularly if the circuit is heavily loaded near to the point of connection of the 'bond') a (possibly significant) proportion of the N current from loads on the ring circuit will presuably attempt to return via the 'gas pipe route'.

Also, given the nature of some of this discussion, you may perhaps expect some comments about your reference to a "ring main", even though we obviously all know what you mean!!

Kind Regards, John