Do I need to switch the shower off?

[Sureitsoff?]

Interesting, thankyou....

As a rule I've been using the shower on its middle setting, but a few weeks ago I turned it up to high which is 9kw. Perhaps that accelerated the failure.

It seems rather odd that a switch should be so poor at switching. Just as well light switches work better.

I think I'll add it to our 'going out' routine rather than switching it off every day. I wouldn't want it failing to On, as sometimes the drain is a bit lethargic.

Thanks for the Crabtree rec. I already ordered an MK, perhaps I'll keep that in reserve.

The crabtree switch is favoured by lots on here as it's easy to wire with nice big terminals and allows cables to come down either side of a joist

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

The crabtree switch is favoured by lots on here as it's easy to wire with nice big terminals and allows cables to come down either side of a joist

The most reliable switches, are the wall mounted switches. We had one shower turn itself on, or maybe left on, whilst we were out for the day, which soaked the ceiling/floor below, but luckily it all dried out, and only needed paint to sort it. I/we still haven't learned our lesson, we still leave the isolator on, even when away for weeks at a time.

 

[SUNRAY]

The most reliable switches, are the wall mounted switches. We had one shower turn itself on, or maybe left on, whilst we were out for the day, which soaked the ceiling/floor below, but luckily it all dried out, and only needed paint to sort it. I/we still haven't learned our lesson, we still leave the isolator on, even when away for weeks at a time.

And there I was thinking I'm the only one to have known such problems.

 

[ebee]

My take - I could be wrong and probably am.

In my experience I have not had an reports when considering bog standard purely electric or even those with some electronics in them actually failing in such a way to put the shower on when not intended.
I am not suggesting that my experiences on such are in any way representative.

I have had two instances of something strange.
1/ A shower that was not of the solenoid type but purely the water tap allowing waterflow into the shower, lifting the pressure valve to switch the heater on and water then flowed out of it via the spray head. OK so far. BUT - somebody had recobbled it to hide the whole assembly into a cupboard and putting a tap (stoptap type valve thingy) on the outlet to the spray.
I was fitting a light fitting at the time and kept hearing a faint bubbling then silence repeating.
When I finished the lighting I traced the hiss to the cupboard to see this heath robinson set up'
I mentioned it to the customer who mentioned that they had it fitted a few years earlier and since then their electric bills seemed to always be a little higher than before.
Informed them they were constantly maintaining hot water in the shower unit whether in use or not but I was more concerned about the unit constantly being at an abnormal higher pressure and no means of venting that hot water unless the shower was in use.
I left them to get "their man" to fix it. So what came next I have no idea.

2/ A similar type of shower but had been dismantled from the wall by builders still with plumbing and electrics connected and the whole assembly was laying on the floor.
It was Friday morning and the lady was returning Saturday afternoon .
So being the last man out before next week restart by any trade, I check the stoptap off, yes good, I also completely disconnected from the mains inside the consumer unit.

Late Saturday afternoon the old lady called me, "water running thru the when I came home, we switched off at the mains and it stopped".
I attended and a small amount of water on the floor.
Nobody had been in the house for one and a half days yet this shower had trickled thru the ceiling just enough to cause a crack in the ceiling paper so the ceiling needs re-papering for a very short period and immediately prior to her return .
I replied that the only way for that to possibly happen was for somebody to get in the house say 15 minutes before she returned, turn the shower tap back on then turn it off a minute or so before she came thru the front door.
I replied "No, somebody has been in and deliberately done that so now we need to call the Police to attend and they will check it and take statements with a view to apprehending the culprits" .
she would have none of it.
I sent my bill for the call out and a relative objected. I suggested that the old lady was confused but I think somebody had played a nasty trick on her. The relative said "No we will pay your bill". They paid rapid.

Points to note :-
1/ I asked all trades if they noticed anything about that ceiling and all six of them had noticed her living room ceiling had a couple of cracks in well dried out and stuck together with Sellotape before any of started work. I had noticed the same, has had the main trade boss on the job and the LA Grants officer a few months prior.
2/ During prior conversation I knew her name and she mentioned her son was a self employed electrician.
I had never met him but seen his regular adverts in the local press for years, in fact when I saw the state of her household electrics I was a bit gobsmacked that her son was an electrician .
3/ I don`t suppose it is that unusual that an electricians mother is having a LA grant rewire undertaken by another electrician?
4/ She said her son had suggested that all this happened because the shower was still connected to the electrics at the time.
Well this proved to me that he had never checked to see if the shower was still electrically connect and even then, as no solenoid involved with this shower only a mechanical valve such as a stop tap could cause said events, no water risk whatsoever unless deliberate actions of a limited duration in a very small time window.

Conclusion - I lost my faith in sweet little old ladies trying to get you to make a claim on your own pub liability insurance upon incorrect information passed on from a crap electrician so she could get some age old water damaged decorations corrected.

 

[JohnW2]

In my experience I have not had an reports when considering bog standard purely electric or even those with some electronics in them actually failing in such a way to put the shower on when not intended. ... I am not suggesting that my experiences on such are in any way representative.

For what it's worth, nor is it something that I have ever experienced, nor heard of having being experienced by anyone I personally know.

However, I cannot argue with the reports we read here (and other places) that such faults are known to happen - even though I find it rather difficult to think of mechanisms whereby it 'can' (does) happen.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

My take - I could be wrong and probably am.

In my experience I have not had an reports when considering bog standard purely electric or even those with some electronics in them actually failing in such a way to put the shower on when not intended.
I am not suggesting that my experiences on such are in any way representative.

I have had two instances of something strange.
1/ A shower that was not of the solenoid type but purely the water tap allowing waterflow into the shower, lifting the pressure valve to switch the heater on and water then flowed out of it via the spray head. OK so far. BUT - somebody had recobbled it to hide the whole assembly into a cupboard and putting a tap (stoptap type valve thingy) on the outlet to the spray.
I was fitting a light fitting at the time and kept hearing a faint bubbling then silence repeating.
When I finished the lighting I traced the hiss to the cupboard to see this heath robinson set up'
I mentioned it to the customer who mentioned that they had it fitted a few years earlier and since then their electric bills seemed to always be a little higher than before.
Informed them they were constantly maintaining hot water in the shower unit whether in use or not but I was more concerned about the unit constantly being at an abnormal higher pressure and no means of venting that hot water unless the shower was in use.
I left them to get "their man" to fix it. So what came next I have no idea.

2/ A similar type of shower but had been dismantled from the wall by builders still with plumbing and electrics connected and the whole assembly was laying on the floor.
It was Friday morning and the lady was returning Saturday afternoon .
So being the last man out before next week restart by any trade, I check the stoptap off, yes good, I also completely disconnected from the mains inside the consumer unit.

Late Saturday afternoon the old lady called me, "water running thru the when I came home, we switched off at the mains and it stopped".
I attended and a small amount of water on the floor.
Nobody had been in the house for one and a half days yet this shower had trickled thru the ceiling just enough to cause a crack in the ceiling paper so the ceiling needs re-papering for a very short period and immediately prior to her return .
I replied that the only way for that to possibly happen was for somebody to get in the house say 15 minutes before she returned, turn the shower tap back on then turn it off a minute or so before she came thru the front door.
I replied "No, somebody has been in and deliberately done that so now we need to call the Police to attend and they will check it and take statements with a view to apprehending the culprits" .
she would have none of it.
I sent my bill for the call out and a relative objected. I suggested that the old lady was confused but I think somebody had played a nasty trick on her. The relative said "No we will pay your bill". They paid rapid.

Points to note :-
1/ I asked all trades if they noticed anything about that ceiling and all six of them had noticed her living room ceiling had a couple of cracks in well dried out and stuck together with Sellotape before any of started work. I had noticed the same, has had the main trade boss on the job and the LA Grants officer a few months prior.
2/ During prior conversation I knew her name and she mentioned her son was a self employed electrician.
I had never met him but seen his regular adverts in the local press for years, in fact when I saw the state of her household electrics I was a bit gobsmacked that her son was an electrician .
3/ I don`t suppose it is that unusual that an electricians mother is having a LA grant rewire undertaken by another electrician?
4/ She said her son had suggested that all this happened because the shower was still connected to the electrics at the time.
Well this proved to me that he had never checked to see if the shower was still electrically connect and even then, as no solenoid involved with this shower only a mechanical valve such as a stop tap could cause said events, no water risk whatsoever unless deliberate actions of a limited duration in a very small time window.

Conclusion - I lost my faith in sweet little old ladies trying to get you to make a claim on your own pub liability insurance upon incorrect information passed on from a crap electrician so she could get some age old water damaged decorations corrected.

I've known a fair few of those 'irregular' claims in my time.
I started taking 'before' photos, prior to starting work, specifically so I had a record and could revert to original if required.
Finding them very useful I started taking a lot more, especially of things I noticed, and lots of 'after' photos too.

Several photo's in the series including my avatar, but one in particular and my report saved the company I was contracted to around a £55K insurance claim.

Another I was accused of damaging a suspended ceiling, Luckily for me I'd well documented the damage, including an image of one of their personel when I was initially being shown around several weeks before I started work. I also had images after I'd finished showing how my work had improved the appearence of the damage. I'd relieved the weight of cable rested on the ceiling while adding more and straightened a couple of grid bars allowing the bent tiles to sit flatter.

Slightly differently I had a situation where I disconnected and dismantled a control panel which prevented an operating theatre extracter fan operating.
Knowing the work would be irreversible I'd very specifically asked for a hand written list in my day book of the works I was able to do that day. Basically it was strip everything in a small rooftop plantroom apart from one enclosure which was nothing to do with the job I was on.
I produced that list during a fact finding interview prior to compensation claim and never heard anymore about it.

I have other tales. Oh yes I love the power of photographs.

 

[SUNRAY]

For what it's worth, nor is it something that I have ever experienced, nor heard of having being experienced by anyone I personally know.

However, I cannot argue with the reports we read here (and other places) that such faults are known to happen - even though I find it rather difficult to think of mechanisms whereby it 'can' (does) happen.

Kind Regards, John

Do you mean you don't understand that components go faulty?

 

[ebee]

Do you mean you don't understand that components go faulty?

Decent components by decent manufacturers not so much, in fact almost never, used to be the experience but cheaper imports encouraging cheaper own stuff too tends to make things cheaper but with more limited lifespan too. Sign of the times and dare I say tinged to some part by Americanism.
But do not be fooled by the perception of some (usually sellers) products are not limited by being guaranteed for 12 months/3 years . The seller (stores) or manufacturer too might try to hide behind them and if you let them then they get away with it. The trump card is, that it must be up for the job in hand, as described, free from defects and any guarantees in no way limit your rights.
One example, white goods 6 years (5 in Scotland) you do not need to buy that expensive extra warranty after 12 months , you might meet resistance but it`s easy to go to court if you minded to. If that TV goes wrong after 13 months you might well expect it to last at least 5 years (purely as an example if it is reasonable to expect TVs to last 5 years) and get some comeback.
But some retailers and manufacturers do tend to try out what they can get away with and if you fight them they very often lose, that does not mean you will always get the full cost you originally paid for the item but if you are awarded more than they offered and they bear all costs, and they know that.
And that includes refurbished goods too.

Anyway - I side-tracked again, sorry Showers

 

[JohnW2]

Do you mean you don't understand that components go faulty?

No, I mean I can't really think of what sort of 'components going faulty' would result in the sort of consequences we have been discussing - but that's quite possibly because I haven't thought deeply enough!

 

[Diver Fred]

I often get the reply from some folk as to why they keep switching shower or cooker isolators off when not in use xxx no of times a day is "because I don`t like that little red light using up all that electricity"

Had a tenant who took the switch to pieces to disconnect - in fact remove - the little red light! He didn't switch the circuit off at the consumer unit so had a call out to 'sort out' why his cooker stopped working... I'm surprised he didn't damage himself when he shorted the live/neutral/earth out.

 

[plugwash]

I think a lot of failures start with either capacitors going bad and destabilising the logic power supply, or non-volatile memory going bad and corrupting either program code or configuration data. Either way you get a misbehaving microcontroller.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

For what it's worth, nor is it something that I have ever experienced, nor heard of having being experienced by anyone I personally know.

You've never known hardware latching up in the wrong state, nor would consider that the 'start' button of a shower might be shorted out, by water?

 

[ebee]

You've never known hardware latching up in the wrong state, nor would consider that the 'start' button of a shower might be shorted out, by water?

I`ve not but I`ve only done 100s of showers not thousands so my real life experience might be skewed from that of others, I accept that.

 

[JohnW2]

I think a lot of failures start with either capacitors going bad and destabilising the logic power supply, or non-volatile memory going bad and corrupting either program code or configuration data. Either way you get a misbehaving microcontroller.

That's certainly the basis of most failures of electronic things. However .....

..... I may well be behind the times, but I think most/all of the electric showers I've seen or played with have disconnected the power and/or the electrical connection to the solenoid when 'switched off'. In those cases, it's difficult to see how any fault in the electronics could result in water flow, even if power is still being supplied to the shower unit.

 

[ebee]

That's certainly the basis of most failures of electronic things. However .....

..... I may well be behind the times, but I think most/all of the electric showers I've seen or played with have disconnected the power and/or the electrical connection to the solenoid when 'switched off'. In those cases, it's difficult to see how any fault in the electronics could result in water flow, even if power is still being supplied to the shower unit.

Agreed, if it is purely electric driving a solenoid and a heating element then not much problem. Getting electronics involved in a bathroom does not always end well.