Dodgy builder demanding money!

[Wardster]

Hi guys (and gals!)
The search function didn't help me when looking if anyone has posted anything similar, so, here goes!

I required some building work carried out, which was to build a reinforcing wall to support a bowed cellar wall. Additionally, I also needed the floor joists and floorboards replacing.
Initially, the first quote for the building work included VAT, but no invoices were produced with a VAT reg number on them. The builder, who is the father of the chap who OWNS the business then negotiated the price for the flooring, but he would do the work "ex VAT" and pay the money through the "non company" account.
Essentially, as far as I'm concerned, the company is all legit, and I am spoke to the Owner about an all in cost of £2200, which as far as I'm concerned was all agreed (verbally).

The works to the cellar overran as the labourer filled the back of the new wall in too quick with the back fill, and the builder had bought the wrong wall ties. This was picked up by the structural engineer who insisted the wall had to come down and put back up using the correct ties and allowing the wall to set before backfilling.

Apart from this, I was reasonably happy with the standard of work, until the builder finished his work and basically buggered off, dropping the key off at my work!

After the builder left, he had left tools, a cement mixer and a ****e load of mess in the back garden. OK, I thought, I did say put the wood in the garden, but I wasn't expecting it to be just thrown there and left in an bloody huge pile and mess.
Also, the original back fill that had to be removed and old mortar was dumped in the garden which I had to remove myself.

Internally, a door frame had been ripped out without checking with me, a door was taken off its hinges and not replaced and scrap wood and bits left lying around. The solid stone hearth under the fire had been removed, and the hole in the brick work under the fire was not filled in, even though this would have been essential because I was having a DPC fitted!
The door frame was the big thing though, as the top of the frame supports some brickwork, the bricks were exposed and loose, and potentially could have falled out, causing damage or injury.

Anyway, the builder has come round, and has come out with some great stories about how his son has given birth to another child and oh no, sorry I havent been in touch, my son has had a nervous breakdown.
He comes round to pick up a cheque, and I try to point out the door frame, but hes in a rush and is harping on about his son being not well and having taken on too much work etc etc. The cheque is for £2200, and he makes a comment about 'is that the right amount' to which I replied 'yep, thats all been agreed'.
This was a FULL MONTH ago, in which the cheque was cashed and I've not heard a thing from them.

Theres been no communication, not even a phone call, and all of a sudden...... I get an email telling me that I owe £230 for outstanding VAT, and if I don't pay within 7 days, then 29% interest will be added per month!

There was a interesting conversation in which the builder basically threatened to come down and "sort me out" if it wasn't paid up, to which I told him to 'bugger off'!!

I have spoken to trading standards about this, and they will get in touch with me again.

But - have any of you had a similar problem?
My problem is, is that because the builder wasn't contactable, then I had to do some of the work myself (replacing the brickwork under the fire) and replacing the door frame, as well and general cleaning up the mess left behind.

Also, I have not recieved any reciepts, statements or proper invoices with VAT numbers on. Where do I stand on this?

I think theres a possibility it could get naughty with the builder because he has turned from being an alright sort of bloke to a complete and utter prick! 'You won't like me when I get nasty - ask around, you'll find out what I'm really like when I get nasty' has been one of his phrases!

Any info or advice, mucho greatly appreciated.

 

[JohnD]

You could pretend to be polite, and say "Can you let me have the VAT invoice please as my accountant requires correct documentation." To be frank you have got yourself into the VAT problem, you thought you were saving yourself some money by taking part in a tax-evasion scam.


If you think he is threatening you with violence, you might report to your local police station, unlikely to have any effect unless he's already got a record for it (as he seems to be suggesting).

 

[Static]

Ok,
You should have gotten a schedule of works (list of all agreed items to be done) and a written estimate for this schedule. Im also guessing you didnt appoint an architect/contract administrator.
Did you get anything in writing?
Was the verbally agreed price inc vat? as alot of builders will quote ex vat prices (but should state that when telling you).
Next i would take ALOT of photos of the mess/work done/items you have 'fixed' etc etc.
Then i would make a "snagging" list of item they should come back and fix, items that were listed on the schedule of works or whatever was agreed. Give them reasonable time to complete the works, ie 28 days.

But im guessing you have no writting agreement so may just have to
tell him you have been in contact with your solicitor and they would like to have his VAT reg number to get it verified by HMRC, and the written agreed price including the schedule of works. Also any further threats and you will contact the local police. If this fails to make him run, then DO get in contact with a solicitor for advice. You are (when no written contract is inplace) basically legally abliged to pay the workman a reasonable amount for works done. If you feel £2200 is reasonable then its his fault for not doing things legit.
Again i say take photos while the works are bare.

 

[Wardster]

Thanks for the quick replies.
I know I'm more than likely going to be stuck between a rock and a hard place, but the only documents I recieved was the initial single sheet paperwork for the building work with "Schedule of works - As per drawing number xyz123" (Drawing supplied by the Structural Eng.) and a cost of about £1550 (ex VAT) if I remember rightly, and a second sheet with a DIFFERENT business address on for the flooring work to be done, again, with just "New joists and floorboards to be fitted" and a cost of £600
No mention of VAT on this one.

I do have quite a few photos of the work and snags, but like I said, when I tried to get in touch with the builder, he was unavailable and didnt reply to my messages.
Also, I have asked him to send me full copies and documentation of everthing to do with the works.

The majority of the snags have had to be sorted by myself and another builder, so therefore it's not going to be very easy to ask him to come back and make any remedial works!!

I personally wasn't in any way into being involved with any scam to beat the TAX or VAT man. Whatever the builder does in my opinion is up to him!

Hope this clarifies a bit more.

 

[Static]

Ok, well thats fine so they did as per struct eng's drawings hopefully.

So lets see £1550 ex vat and assume £600 is inc vat means your total bill should have been £2421.25 total, you paid £2200 means you owe £221.25 and they are asking for £230.

From that info it looks like they are charging you the correct amount. Pay it and have nothing more to do with them, It doesnt look like they are ripping you off on cost, they just did a poor job on the work.
Next time hold back 10% of final figure agree for a couple of months so they have to sort small snagging items to get the full amount.

 

[joe-90]

I agree with static. Pay it and forget it. It's just not worth the hassle.



joe

 

[Diyisfun]

Why pay it & forget it.
Why not state in writting that you accept that you have underpaid but given the quality etc of the work you feel that the amount withheld is justifiable.
Easy polite letter at worst they reject it & you pay, but you stand 50/50 of them acccepting.

Its all about being business like.

 

[pitbull]

If you still have the mixer and tool's send him a bill for £230 storage
and if not paid in 7 days adding 29% per month!

 

[Basecoat]

Hi guys (and gals!)
The search function didn't help me when looking if anyone has posted anything similar, so, here goes!

I required some building work carried out, which was to build a reinforcing wall to support a bowed cellar wall. Additionally, I also needed the floor joists and floorboards replacing.
Initially, the first quote for the building work included VAT, but no invoices were produced with a VAT reg number on them. The builder, who is the father of the chap who OWNS the business then negotiated the price for the flooring, but he would do the work "ex VAT" and pay the money through the "non company" account.
Essentially, as far as I'm concerned, the company is all legit, and I am spoke to the Owner about an all in cost of £2200, which as far as I'm concerned was all agreed (verbally).

The works to the cellar overran as the labourer filled the back of the new wall in too quick with the back fill, and the builder had bought the wrong wall ties. This was picked up by the structural engineer who insisted the wall had to come down and put back up using the correct ties and allowing the wall to set before backfilling.

Apart from this, I was reasonably happy with the standard of work, until the builder finished his work and basically b*****r off, dropping the key off at my work!

After the builder left, he had left tools, a cement mixer and a s***te load of mess in the back garden. OK, I thought, I did say put the wood in the garden, but I wasn't expecting it to be just thrown there and left in an b****y huge pile and mess.
Also, the original back fill that had to be removed and old mortar was dumped in the garden which I had to remove myself.

Internally, a door frame had been ripped out without checking with me, a door was taken off its hinges and not replaced and scrap wood and bits left lying around. The solid stone hearth under the fire had been removed, and the hole in the brick work under the fire was not filled in, even though this would have been essential because I was having a DPC fitted!
The door frame was the big thing though, as the top of the frame supports some brickwork, the bricks were exposed and loose, and potentially could have falled out, causing damage or injury.

Anyway, the builder has come round, and has come out with some great stories about how his son has given birth to another child and oh no, sorry I havent been in touch, my son has had a nervous breakdown.
He comes round to pick up a cheque, and I try to point out the door frame, but hes in a rush and is harping on about his son being not well and having taken on too much work etc etc. The cheque is for £2200, and he makes a comment about 'is that the right amount' to which I replied 'yep, thats all been agreed'.
This was a FULL MONTH ago, in which the cheque was cashed and I've not heard a thing from them.

Theres been no communication, not even a phone call, and all of a sudden...... I get an email telling me that I owe £230 for outstanding VAT, and if I don't pay within 7 days, then 29% interest will be added per month!

There was a interesting conversation in which the builder basically threatened to come down and "sort me out" if it wasn't paid up, to which I told him to 'b*****r off'!!

I have spoken to trading standards about this, and they will get in touch with me again.

But - have any of you had a similar problem?
My problem is, is that because the builder wasn't contactable, then I had to do some of the work myself (replacing the brickwork under the fire) and replacing the door frame, as well and general cleaning up the mess left behind.

Also, I have not recieved any reciepts, statements or proper invoices with VAT numbers on. Where do I stand on this?

I think theres a possibility it could get naughty with the builder because he has turned from being an alright sort of bloke to a complete and utter p***k! 'You won't like me when I get nasty - ask around, you'll find out what I'm really like when I get nasty' has been one of his phrases!

Any info or advice, mucho greatly appreciated.

Hi "wardster"

Trading standards will tell you exactly what you should do in the circumstance you are in. I would stand firm and don't let them intimidate you. The agreement between you and the builder is for a job to be started and completed to your satisfaction. If that is no so then you have the right to withold the outstanding money until the work is completed to your satisfaction.

Someone has given you very good advice to take pictures of the job and the mess he left behind. These are your proof/evidence of poor workmanship you have been delivered. Believe me this scum will run like scalded cat. I am saying from my own experience with a upvc window firm. I got an independent surveyor costing £100.00 inc vat. (This was later deducted from his money). His report helped me fight the guy. My photographic evidence was very useful to me. This guy tried three times to bully me into submission but each time he got more than he bargained for. It was trading standards helped me put the final nail into his coffin.

 

[Wardster]

Thanks basecoat - The pictures I have are of the internal work which has had to have been made good, plus the door frame having being put back into place. Outside shots of the mess aren't available (didn't take any ), but the neighbours I'm pretty sure would back me up on the mess left!

Also, the builder who I had to get in would 100% back me up on the other works left outstanding, but I have got pics of the door frame and the step, as well as the works having to have been sorted out.

I've sent off a letter, recorded delivery to them anyway, asking them to produce all receipts, invoices and VAT statements for the work done, with a list of the snags that they left behind.

I'm just waiting for Trading Standards to get in touch, and hopefully they might be able to get something sorted out.

To be honest, I'm more dismayed about the fact that they didn't get in touch on more reasonable terms and explain that a mistakes been made, and say "ok, we should have been in touch, obviously theres some confusion between us, so X is outstanding, can we come to some arrangement etc etc".
If they had done this (wishful thinking I know!!!!!) then I'd probably made them an offer of 50%!

I'm an engineer and do part time work (all legal and above board!) outside of my main job, and if I had made a cock up and demanded payment a month after - I'd pretty damn well expect to be told "tough"!!!

I'll post some pics of the internal jobs that wasn't completed later on I think, so you can see what I mean!

Wardster

 

[Basecoat]

Thanks basecoat - The pictures I have are of the internal work which has had to have been made good, plus the door frame having being put back into place. Outside shots of the mess aren't available (didn't take any ), but the neighbours I'm pretty sure would back me up on the mess left!

Also, the builder who I had to get in would 100% back me up on the other works left outstanding, but I have got pics of the door frame and the step, as well as the works having to have been sorted out.

I've sent off a letter, recorded delivery to them anyway, asking them to produce all receipts, invoices and VAT statements for the work done, with a list of the snags that they left behind.

I'm just waiting for Trading Standards to get in touch, and hopefully they might be able to get something sorted out.

To be honest, I'm more dismayed about the fact that they didn't get in touch on more reasonable terms and explain that a mistakes been made, and say "ok, we should have been in touch, obviously theres some confusion between us, so X is outstanding, can we come to some arrangement etc etc".
If they had done this (wishful thinking I know!!!!!) then I'd probably made them an offer of 50%!

I'm an engineer and do part time work (all legal and above board!) outside of my main job, and if I had made a cock up and demanded payment a month after - I'd pretty damn well expect to be told "tough"!!!

I'll post some pics of the internal jobs that wasn't completed later on I think, so you can see what I mean!

Wardster

Hi "wardster"

Hope all goes well for you.

 

[Moz]

Wardster
to be honest ....

You got what you paid for ..lol

you entered into a shady deal an it went t*ts up ..dont come crying now its all blown up ..

as soon as you go to a solicitor he will tell you the same thing , you went into agreement illegally with a cowboy builder full knowing you were diddling the vat man ..lol ...

if you had told trading standards the FULL 1st post he would of just said , "hard luck ... bye"

pay cowboy an forget it ..or he could see you in court an you will have the vat man after you ..

 

[Softus]

Initially, the first quote for the building work included VAT, but no invoices were produced with a VAT reg number on them.
.
.
.
Also, I have not recieved any reciepts, statements or proper invoices with VAT numbers on. Where do I stand on this?

To be frank you have got yourself into the VAT problem, you thought you were saving yourself some money by taking part in a tax-evasion scam.

This is the first ever thing I've seen JohnD write that is either (a) factually wrong or (b) bad advice.

If you received a written quotation, then it's plain sailing. If not, it will be harder, but write to him stating that he gave you a quotation that included VAT, and that you have paid it in full. If he persists with the idea that it didn't [include VAT], then you have a dispute on your hands. Start by asking him for an itemised invoice bearing his VAT registation number. That will deter him if he's just a liar and/or unscrupulous.

Static's advice about the photos and snagging list is excellent. If you end up in court, then this information will be invaluable. In the meantime, you are legally bound to pay him what he asks for, as long as the amount is reasonable and commensurate - you can't withhold money unless you have an agreement to do so.

Furthermore:

Pay it and have nothing more to do with them...

Pragmatically this is your best solution. You've certainly made a rod for your own back with being unclear at the beginning of the job, and no matter how badly done by you are, you may wish to consider the personal cost to you of what would turn out to be months of legal wrangling (and abuse).

I personally wasn't in any way into being involved with any scam to beat the TAX or VAT man. Whatever the builder does in my opinion is up to him!

Quite so. If a business, or person, is VAT registered, and they charge you, then they are obliged to add VAT and pass it to HMC&E. Whatever you have paid as the total bill, the amount includes VAT, and nothing you do, or fail to do, changes that - you cannot be breaking the law, and the VAT man will never be "after you" (sorry Moz, but you're wrong here).

Trading standards will tell you exactly what you should do in the circumstance you are in.

Rubbish - they will not give you legal advice. Consult either the CAB or a solicitor.

If that is no so then you have the right to withold the outstanding money until the work is completed to your satisfaction.

Not true - you have no legal right to withhold payment on the grounds of poor quality. If the work is done then you must pay, and reclaim the money only if the builder does not redress the faults.

You won't like me when I get nasty - ask around, you'll find out what I'm really like when I get nasty.

This is the easiet bit - tell the police that he has threatened you. He won't like it when they get nasty.

 

[JohnD]

I was thinking of "The builder, who is the father of the chap who OWNS the business then negotiated the price for the flooring, but he would do the work "ex VAT" and pay the money through the "non company" account. "

 

[Softus]

I do see your point, and you're right, but my [subtle] point is that the OP doesn't have a VAT problem. He can rightfully claim that any money paid out includes a VAT component, because it's illegal for a VAT registered trader to charge any money without including VAT.

I think we're actually making two different points, so I'll hereby retract my assertion that your advice was wrong and/or bad, and apologise for misunderstanding you.