Earth question - Shaver socket

[FrodoOne]

As I always acknowledge, I'm sure that must be the case. At the least, a few lives may have been saved by RCDs clearing faults before anyone had a chance to get a shock.

As for what many/most people seem to think of ('direct protection', with an RCD limiting the duration of a shock when it happens), I'm far less convinced. You will be aware that, for years, I have been trying to get anecdotal reports of people who have survived an electric shock which 'caused' an RCD to operate, and I've only ever received a couple of such reports, neither of which are totally 'clear cut'. I can't see that we will ever really know the answer to this, for several reasons - probably the most important being that, even if it happens, they may well have survived even if there had been no RCD!

You may be interested in the results of the following "Google Search" - although the "results" obtained from the reference below differ slightly from those obtained originally, which are quoted underneath.

https://www.google.com/search?q=deaths+thermal+insulation+installation+rcd&rlz=1C2GCEU_en___AU1161&sca_esv=f5ebe8c14457f75d&sxsrf=AE3TifOp9HnRWFT1y_UfJowc8R60KO4asA:1760250157498&ei=LUnraKiZHs2j1e8PtOHwwAY&ved=0ahUKEwjo4-nqgp6QAxXNUfUHHbQwHGgQ4dUDCBE&uact=5&oq=deaths+thermal+insulation+installation+rcd&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiKmRlYXRocyB0aGVybWFsIGluc3VsYXRpb24gaW5zdGFsbGF0aW9uIHJjZDIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAFIuRdQ_QZYqRJwAXgAkAEAmAGFAqABowiqAQUwLjIuM7gBA8gBAPgBAZgCBaACqAfCAg4QABiABBiwAxiGAxiKBcICCxAAGLADGKIEGIkFwgIIEAAYsAMY7wXCAgsQABiABBiwAxiiBMICBRAhGJ8FwgIEECEYFZgDAIgGAZAGBZIHBTEuMS4zoAerHrIHBTAuMS4zuAejB8IHAzItNcgHFw&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

"Four installers died in Australia's 2009-2010 Home Insulation Program due to a combination of factors, including poor training, rushed rollouts, and insufficient safety measures. Three were electrocuted while working with metal fasteners on foil or fiberglass insulation, a risk that would likely have been prevented with the installation of Residual Current Devices (RCDs). The fourth died of hyperthermia while working in a hot ceiling space. "

• RCDs:
  The Royal Commission highlighted that RCDs, which cut power in the event of an electric shock, would have likely saved the lives of the three electrocuted workers. Many homes in the scheme were not protected by RCDs, and it was not mandatory to fit them retrospectively.

 

[ericmark]

As I always acknowledge, I'm sure that must be the case. At the least, a few lives may have been saved by RCDs clearing faults before anyone had a chance to get a shock.

I would think there are many more times when the supply has tripped before anyone has had a shock than tripping while someone is getting a shock. However, very hard to prove.

Modern electric shavers with batteries have made shaver sockets pretty much redundant because the shavers do not operate when they are plugged in to be charged. I think this is because almost all shavers are now marketed as being operable wet, so they are now not allowed to be plugged in when potentially being used in this way.

Not sure if that is true. However, the shaver socket is designed to run a shaver from, not charge a shaver when not in use.

I have been going back on the replies to work out why RCD protection was mentioned, and once the supply goes through an isolation transformer connecting either line to earth is unlikely to trip any RCD.

It also states:
These socket-outlets are not necessarily suitable for the supply to electric dry shavers containing battery charging units.

Interesting missed that, but makes sense, I have seen so many shaver sockets which have discoloured due to overheating due to a plug being left in the socket, causing the transformer running for an extended time.

I have one item not RCD protected, the central heating, I did not remove the RCD protection it was the solar panel installers who issued a compliance certificate.

I have questioned which is most dangerous, a freezer not running due to tripped RCD, or an electric shock due to no RCD, I have found lolly ices, which have melted, but was unaware the RCD had tripped at some point, it may have been me who reset it, if I find a RCD tripped I do tend to reset it, today my freezer displays the highest temperature it has reached, but older freezers don't do this.

Today also only the freezer runs from my RCD socket, in the past I had many items running off one RCD, that is still the case for most items running from a socket will have some other item on the same RCD.

But still can't work out why there was any mention of a RCD, what did I miss?

 

[JohnW2]

I would think there are many more times when the supply has tripped before anyone has had a shock than tripping while someone is getting a shock.

That's what I wrote, and you quoted, wasn't it

However, very hard to prove.

Quite so - which is why I suspect/fear that we will never have any useful statistics about what RCDs have achieved (in terms of 'saved lives' etc,):

1... If an RCD clears a fault before anyone gets a shock, we can never know how many, if any, people would have got shocks had there been no RCD, nor what would have happened to them if they had got shocks. Nor can we know whether, in the absence of an RCD, something else may have cleared the fault and/or the fault may have been detected and remedied before anyone got a shock. In any event, it would be impossible to collect any half-useful statistics on the number of faults cleared by an RCD.​

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2... If someone survives, without serious injury, a shock which caused an RCD to operate, one cannot know whether or not they would have survived (without serious injury) in the absence of an RCD. Again, it would be impossible to get useful statistics about any such happenings.​

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3.... If a person dies or suffers serious injury as a result of a shock when there was no RCD protection, one cannot know whether or not they would have died or suffered serious injury had RCD protection been present.​

Ironically, one of the few things about which one might be able to gather reasonably useful statistics are 'failures' of an RCD to achieve what one would have hoped - i.e. people who have died or suffered serious injury as the result of an electric shock which did cause an RCD to operate!

I have been going back on the replies to work out why RCD protection was mentioned, and once the supply goes through an isolation transformer connecting either line to earth is unlikely to trip any RCD.

"Unlikely" is somewhat of an under-statement, isn't it? If a fault to earth oin the secondary side of the "isolating transformer" caused an RCD to operate, the transformer could not be 'isolating', could it?

I have questioned which is most dangerous, a freezer not running due to tripped RCD, or an electric shock due to no RCD...

In what sense do you consider a freezer not running to be 'dangerous' ?