'E'asy rider.

[Estrella]

Ok, before all the 'Holy than thou's' get their undies in a bunch I will preface my story with a statement. I do not condone drugs, they are dangerous, and if my kids took them I would be devastated.

-------------------

Nearly 20 years ago I took E's every Sat night for about a year. They were always taken openly in the local nightclub or in one of the open air raves we went to. I also took speed (billy) and smoked weed at the same time. I also did coke a couple of times, but didn't rate it. I stopped as the club we used to frequent was busted numerous times and eventually shut down. Open air raves were also shut almost as soon as they opened. I wasn't addicted and suffered no withdrawel from weed, Ecstacy or speed when I stopped.

20 years on I am not aware of any ill effects. I hold down a professional job, used to run a successful business and have a happy home life with three daughters. I am still good friends with many who were in that scene at the time and all of them have families and as far as I am aware have no issues of any kind. What I am perfectly happy to admit too is that we may well have been very lucky.

Any moron who swallows pills, snorts coke or injects heroin deserves what they get.

Couldn't agree with you more, and as an 18 yr old moron, nothing anyone told me about the dangers would have made a blind bit of difference.

At least with horse riding, you know the risks.

I knew exactly what the risks were with drugs, I just didn't care.

 

[peteftw]

fair play for your candour Boxcleva, but i disagree with what you've said.

Id like to get back to the root of this thread which is:

- the comments made by Prof. Nutt
- who is the chief executive of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs
- who recently published a paper entitled "Equasy: An overlooked addiction with implications for the current debate on drug harms",

in the above mentioned paper mr nutt compares the social and mortal risks involved in pursuing horse riding and recreational use of ecstasy.

i havnt been able to read the paper myself as it costs $30USD, but i have been able to view the data.

there are approx 2.4 million horse riders in the uk and approx 100 deaths per year giving a ratio of: 1 death per 24 000 riders

there are approx. 730 000 regular ecstasy users in the uk and approx. 30 deaths per year giving a ratio of 1 death per 24 333 users.

instantly you can see these figures are very similar and the only difference i can see is the social acceptance of these pursuits.

im sure like, BoxCleva, you would be horrified to discover that your child was taking ecstasy. paradoxically im sure you would be quite proud if your child was adept at horse riding but, based on these figures, your child would encounter a similar mortal risk as to that of regular use of MDMA.

to give you another example; who would you feel sorry for, given the choice?

- a person left a paraplegic for life because of a horse riding accident
- someone left dependant on social services for life because of a ecstacy habit

neither had to ride horses or do drugs but the dangers of both are well documented.

 

[Estrella]

fair play for your candour Boxcleva, but i disagree with what you've said.

I have no problem telling the truth Pete. Do you mind telling me which bit you disagree with ?

to give you another example; who would you feel sorry for, given the choice?

- a person left a paraplegic for life because of a horse riding accident
- someone left dependant on social services for life because of a ecstacy habit

yup, very good point. A little like a programme I was watching on Sky the other night about a serial killer. Noone was that bothered while he was killing prostitutes, but when he eventually killed a Uni student there was an outcry. Hmmm......

 

[noseall]

with a horse riding addiction, actually riding the horse is about as dangerous as it can get.

ecstasy can, and does lead (in some cases) to the user seeking out even more thrilling drugs. also, the user may want to take other chemicals to overcome the effects of the ecstasy, in order to either sleep or indeed stay awake.

 

[Estrella]

ecstasy can, and does lead (in some cases) to the user seeking out even more thrilling drugs.

I agree that that does happen, although I never experienced that personally or saw that happen to any of my friends.

 

[peteftw]

i was only disagreeing with you on your opinion of "any moron who takes pills deserves what they get"

i can understand that but its a bit cold. i had a primary school teacher who in his later years of life was wheelchair bound because of a motorbike accident. i think there would be very few people who would say "f**k him, he deserved it, shouldnt have got on that dangerous motorbike" i think most people would agree it was a tragic accident but i dont think they'd have much sympathy for some on whos recked their life because of ecstasy.

with a horse riding addiction, actually riding the horse is about as dangerous as it can get.

ecstasy can, and does lead (in some cases) to the user seeking out even more thrilling drugs. also, the user may want to take other chemicals to overcome the effects of the ecstasy, in order to either sleep or indeed stay awake.

thats exactly what this paper deals with it doesnt just concentrate on directly comparing fatalities.

there are documented cases of the main reason for a divorce being that one partner was spending to much time playing with their horses than with the family. this lead to the break up of the family unit, who knows the long term effect on those poor children not having both mother and father - its always the most vulnerable that suffer with the curse of horse addiction.

also if you learn how to ride horse you may go on to hunt. Through hunting, it also led to gatherings of users that often are associated with these groups engaging in violent conduct.

admittitly these are quite tongue-in-cheek and, from what ive read, it appears the rest of the paper is written like this.

the old gateway drug theory remains unproven but if there is any candidate that deserves this label its cigarettes. the smoking rate amongst drug users is treble that of the normal population. if you were trying to convince a young smoker to quit you wouldnt say "you know a few years down the line you may be a heroin addict" you would concentrate on the actual dangers of smoking, like cancer etc.


honestly, none of what youve said is ridiculous and you probably have legitimiteit reasons for your opinions but what im trying to say is ecstasy doesnt deserve its reputation and shouldnt be a class A drug. it makes cocaine and heroin less dangerous by association.

do you think ecstasy should be class A?

 

[noseall]

the old gateway drug theory remains unproven

most of the people i went to raves with in the late 80's early 90's would smoke cannabis to try and come down and take sedatives to try and sleep. they would also use speed to keep going through Sunday. a small group of ex-ravers i know, are regular cocaine users today.

one fella who never smoked and drunk little alcohol, would smoke each time he got high. he said it felt right. he would not smoke at any other time either. as soon as we stopped clubbing, he stopped smoking. he has not smoked since.

 

[noseall]

i think all recreational drugs have their dangers.

i don't have a problem with ecstasy, its effects, or the users of ecstasy. but i am aware that few people just pop a pill then go home to bed after.

 

[Estrella]

do you think ecstasy should be class A?

I think the whole classification system is irrelevant to be honest.

 

[Zampa]

So...the overall message is..

DONT GO HORSE RIDING WHILE OUT OF YOUR NUT ON ECSTACY!

Thousands of people take pills when they are out all over the world..maybe one dies once in a while..THEY KNOW THE RISKS but then again so do people who smoke, drink and go parachuting..

If one dies once in a while, so what?..I dont care, why should I?..if they want to fill their bodies with that **** week in week out then fine..let em carry on..is anyone going to feel sorry for me if I die of lung cancer becasue I smoke (ok albeit rarely)

'Boxcleva'..I take your point on board and, ok you have obviously done well in whatever you do..but surely your trivialising of the drug scene isnt right..ok Ecstacy doesnt make people aggressive, the hug drug is certainly miles away from booze..which accounts for more injuries, death and mayhem than all the other drugs put together.
But 'just a bit of blow'..long term screws peoples brains..not all I grant you..but some, I work with young lads and see it all the time..its like total recall with them...they have no memory of anything.

Charlie is worse again..go in the pub bogs before most football matches up and down the country and youl see blokes of about 18-25 snorting ten quid wraps to pump themselves up before a game..they are ready to ruck with anyone who wants it

On of my old trainees is now doing a 3 and half stretch all because of uncle Charlie..one of the nicest lads you could meet, bright, witty good worker..the lot, got into the drugs and now he's in one of the worst prisons in the uk...for smacking the granny out of who he thought was a dealer...turned out to be someone totally innocent.

He wasnt 'addicted' either...they never are are they..

Its for people with no personality..why do people need that **** in order to pull etc?..its like saying to someone here take this, become someone else..

What would you say if your kids said they were contacting their dealer to stock up on E's and trips and a bit of coke for a big night out?..

I think ecstacy should be classed as A for intent to supply and possession..and C for use

And, if Ecstacy is going to be downgraded then drinking and driving should carry MINIMUM 5 year first offence driving ban TEN YEAR second..kill someone while over the influence..MININMUM TEN years behind bars..thats the only way to stop people.

 

[Estrella]

'Boxcleva'..I take your point on board and, ok you have obviously done well in whatever you do..but surely your trivialising of the drug scene isnt right.

I didn't at any point trivialise drug use.

I made it clear that I was a moron for doing it, I also made it abundantly clear that I do not condone the use of drugs and also that I understand that some people have had negative side effects from drugs. I did however say that both myself, and my friends haven't suffered any long term effects. I happily acknowledge that we were lucky.

 

[Zampa]

Yep..your right..at the end of the day its a balanced statement...apologies...but I didnt see that bold bit..