Electrical issue! Help!

[ban-all-sheds]

If it's a 100mA RCD then you can add a number of other regulation contraventions to the list.....

 

[tonyelectric]

Makes me more convinced its possibly not a new board and RCD, the use of the 100mA trip gives me visions of an old board

 

[pundabuyer]

Right guys,

Firstly thanks for your replysWe need to clear a few things up. Firstly the electrician is qualified but not to give me a certificate as he had retired. I need to obviously get this done asap.

Can we try and stay focused on the technical problem rather than defermating the character of a workman that may have done nothing wrong, quoting regulations is not why i am here and i need your experience and help please.

The property is a small terraced and only needs few circuits,

i have 2 ring mains, 2 lighting circuits a cooker circuit and the spare trip covers 2 sockets near the CU which is brand new.

The mains board is from Wickes and is a 6 way unit:

Click Here

Also, i made a mistake when i told you about the landing light, the light takes its neutral and live from the downstairs circuit not the earth. i believe the CU ties all earths together anyway so the earthing should make no difference.

What no one is still unable to answer is why the RCD trips when ANY circuit is on soley. If there is an NE fault on a circuit, this would only occur when that circuit the fault is on is live. if i switch each one on one at a time they will still trip individually. this is what makes me believe it could be the CU/RCD that is faulty. But this confuses why the upstairs light loop still works fine!

Here is a picture of the CU:



Is there anything else i can do to help?

 

[tonyelectric]

The fact that he is retired means he has broken the law, he cannot do this work legally, unfortunately you are snookered on the certificate front, he cannot issue one and no other electrician can either, the certificate can only be granted by the contractor who did the work and as he is not registered he can't do it.

Th earth should follow the lighting circuit, it should not be borrowed from unpstairs, at best its a bodge at worst dangerous and can multiply NE problems.

The wiring in the box looks neat enough, what does it say on the trip, it should say 30mA somewhere.

 

[pundabuyer]

Why does it mean he cant connect electrics just because he doesnt work in that field anymore!? he is still qualified to do so!

Also, any electricians should be able to supply a certificate if they test the wiring? what about properties that dont have them from years ago that are then coming up for sale!?? infact my parents had an electrician recently that did theirs.

Im not at the house so i cant tell you what the switches have on them, but i remember seeing 100A and 80mA on the RCD - Does it say on the website where i linked to Wickes? Might be be best for your technical specs.

Thanks

 

[tonyelectric]

Its the law these days i'm afraid (and not one i'm that fond of but its what we have). There are many, many qualified electricians who wire schools, hospitals, theatres etc etc, but unless you pay up to one of NICEIC, ECA, ELECSA, NAPIT every year and have completed part P registration you are very limited as to what you can do in the home, broadly Kitchens, Bathrooms, Outdoors, New Circuits and CU changes are out.

Only the electrician who installed/designed the work can sign an EIC and if you wanted the council to do it (thats the other option) they would have needed to approve your plans in advance, its too late now. You can have a Periodic Inspection Report done by a registered contractor and this will look at the overall state of the system but it is not the same as an Electrical Installation Certificate, I can't see any way you can get one of those legally or officially.

 

[tonyelectric]

Additionally I fear that your spark may have retired before the 17th edition came into force, if so then there will be work to rectify the work to make it pass a PIR as there have been some significant changes to the regulations between 16th & 17th editions. If the RCD is not 30mA that will need changing.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but thats the way it is

 

[pundabuyer]

All i am interested in is that when i come to sell the house i have the necessary 'certificate' of which i believe can be obtained by a test by any electrician qualified to give a cert!?

With regards to different versions of regulations surely if i come to get this certificate in 5 years time all of the regulations will not have to be upheld as the wiring was done before the changes in regs took place ie all sockets being moved up to waist height etc...

Please can we focus on the problem at hand!

 

[tonyelectric]

If the upstairs lights work when they are on without any other circuit the chances are the RCD is fine, the probability is that there may be more than one NE fault or a natural leakage to earth through appliances etc or a crossed/borrowed neutral in the mix but because the whole house is on a single RCD the current is sufficient to trip it.

If you feel confident to do it you could disconnect the live(s) and neutral(s) from each circuit (live from top of MCB, neutral from bar) and try to reset with these removed, if you then can re-set the breaker the fault is most likely on the circuit that is disconnected. BE SURE TO SWITCH OFF THE MAIN BREAKER BEFORE REMOVING, REPLACING OR TOUCHING ANY WIRE.

If its a house you are working on its not at all unheard of to have a nail or screw somewhere through a cable or wet in a box.

Tracing a fault without an insulation tester is not easy, so you may well have to get in an electrician, but make sure they are 17th edition, Part P and registered with a competant persons scheme

I would have the RCD replaced with a main switch and an RCBo per circuit ASAP.

 

[ColJack]

he may be qualified and indeed you don't need to be to issue a EIC, but the fact that he's retired means that he is no longer ( if he ever was ) part P registered and that means you have to have notified the LABC about having the electrics done..

it's a building regs certificate that you'll need not an EIC..

anyway back to the problem..

you were "knocking up" when it happened so one of a few things has occured..

1) you slapped wet plaster into or round a socket or light switch and this has caused a N-E short..
2) you did the fabled "plasterer's trowel trick" where you've managed to slice into a cable in the wall with your trowel..
3) you spilled water on the floor which has run into a JB or light fitting under the floor
4) you've move a cable and it has caught on a backbox because your sparkie didn't fit gromets and has caused a short..

 

[tonyelectric]

he may be qualified and indeed you don't need to be to issue a EIC, but the fact that he's retired means that he is no longer ( if he ever was ) part P registered and that means you have to have notified the LABC about having the electrics done..

it's a building regs certificate that you'll need not an EIC..

anyway back to the problem..

you were "knocking up" when it happened so one of a few things has occured..

1) you slapped wet plaster into or round a socket or light switch and this has caused a N-E short..
2) you did the fabled "plasterer's trowel trick" where you've managed to slice into a cable in the wall with your trowel..
3) you spilled water on the floor which has run into a JB or light fitting under the floor
4) you've move a cable and it has caught on a backbox because your sparkie didn't fit gromets and has caused a short..

But to get a Building regs cert you will need at least the schedule of results from the EIC and to have notified of the work in advance!, rock and hard place.

Concur with ColJack that one if not more of the above is the likely cause, if you follow my method of disconnecting circuits and testing one by one you should at least pin it down to a circuit.

 

[pundabuyer]

ok, wont the act of turning off the circuits one by one at the trip switches eliminate the need to remove the live and neutral wires? (Which i have done but they still trip when they are on individually)

The Plastering was only done downstairs so there should have been no floorboard leakage!

There quite possibly could have been water splashed into somewhere but all of the sockets that were in the room (And most of the downstairs sockets and switches) have been checked, they are not wet inside or have plaster in, this was over a week ago, they should be dry by now. if i could narrow it down to the circuit im sure i could find it but like i said turning everything off and only allowing one live circuit isnt helping which is my confusion!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Firstly the electrician is qualified but not to give me a certificate as he had retired.

Sorry - that's complete nonsense - he is either qualified or he is not. If he is competent to issue an EIC then his status as employed/self-employed/retired/unemployed/etc is irrelevant.

I need to obviously get this done asap.

How?

If neither you nor he believe that the person who did the work can issue an EIC (which may be quite true in this case) then nobody else can.

You're going to need to get a proper electrician involved, so ask him to carry out a PIR.

Can we try and stay focused on the technical problem rather than defermating the character of a workman

Defaming his character? This workman who has left you an installation which doesn't work properly, may be dangerous, does not comply with the regulations, is probably illegal, and who himself did not think that he could certify it even though he did the work?

None of that is character defamation, it's all simple fact. You need to grasp the fact that you should not have let this guy anywhere near the work, and that you now need to let someone who is genuinely qualified and competent at it to sort it out.

that may have done nothing wrong,

He clearly has. There is no chance that he has not.

quoting regulations is not why i am here

You did ask:

Can you please enlighten me on the regulations? What is the problem?

The property is a small terraced and only needs few circuits,

Yes, but not all on a single RCD.

What no one is still unable to answer is why the RCD trips when ANY circuit is on soley.

Actually people have suggested a number of scenarios.

They are all going to need investigating by a competent person with test equipment.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Also, any electricians should be able to supply a certificate if they test the wiring?

Not the sort you need.

what about properties that dont have them from years ago that are then coming up for sale!?? infact my parents had an electrician recently that did theirs.

They didn't need the same sort of certificate which you need.

Im not at the house so i cant tell you what the switches have on them, but i remember seeing 100A and 80mA on the RCD - Does it say on the website where i linked to Wickes? Might be be best for your technical specs.

It's probably not 80mA.

 

[tonyelectric]

ok, wont the act of turning off the circuits one by one at the trip switches eliminate the need to remove the live and neutral wires? (Which i have done but they still trip when they are on individually)

The Plastering was only done downstairs so there should have been no floorboard leakage!

There quite possibly could have been water splashed into somewhere but all of the sockets that were in the room (And most of the downstairs sockets and switches) have been checked, they are not wet inside or have plaster in, this was over a week ago, they should be dry by now. if i could narrow it down to the circuit im sure i could find it but like i said turning everything off and only allowing one live circuit isnt helping which is my confusion!

You need to break the neutral and the live, what is happening is a small ammount of current is passing N to E and as all the circuits run off the RCD with the neutrals permanently "on" at the bar you need to take them out - you could leave the lives in place but leave the breaker for that neutral off - but the neutrals still need to come out, one by one and test, that way you will find the faulty circuit. Be careful that you dont get bitten though, dont touch any metal with the RCD on.