# Electrical Wiring - Ceiling Light

Evening all, apologies if this has been asked before but cannot see that it has and have checked the sticky but many of the images are missing.

I have a question regarding the electrical configuration of a ceiling light. Before I ask, I must iterate that I will not even dream of messing with the electrics but would like to gain an understanding of my setup before I call in an electrician.

I have a ceiling rose in my kitchen that I understand is mid loop and controlled by 1 switch alone. The switch also only controls this light

However the wiring config of the rose is as follows -

Connector 1 - 1 blue neutral from fitting
Connector 2 - 2 blue neutral wires doubled up
Connector 3 - 2 blue neutral wires doubled up
Connector 4 - 2 brown live wires doubled up
Connector 5 - 2 brown live wires doubled up
Connector 6 - 1 brown live
Connector 7 - 1 blue sheathed with brown (switch live)
Connector 8 - 1 brown live from fitting

3 additional earths to earth connector

My confusion lies with what the doubled up neutral and live wires are for? From my understanding for a mid loop ceiling light on 1 switch there should only be 1 wire per connection
I've added a picture if it helps?

[/list]

What you have is quite normal. The 'doubled up' live and neutrals will be one set of L&N loop in and multiple sets of L&N loop out to other fittings.

Lights don't have to be wired 'all in a row' on a radial circuit; it's acceptable and normal to tee/branch off if that is easier or more economical.

Are you being confused by your description of 'connectors 1 to 8?

There are in fact only three connectors (plus earth).
Two have 3 holes and one has 2.

I'm sorry if this does not apply to you but some people think each hole is separate.

Are you being confused by your description of 'connectors 1 to 8? There are in fact only three connectors (plus earth). Two have 3 holes and one has 2.
All true - but I think what is confusing the OP is that there are a lot more perm L/N pairs that one would usually expect in the middle of a 'straight' loop-in run - so, as has been suggested, I presume that this rose must be the centre of a 'star' (i.e. feeding three other roses/fittings.

Kind Regards, John

That too, is true but we have had posters in the past who thought only the wires in the same holes were connected together.

Even ones who thought that wires in the opposite ends of connector blocks were NOT connected.

That too, is true but we have had posters in the past who thought only the wires in the same holes were connected together. Even ones who thought that wires in the opposite ends of connector blocks were NOT connected.
That's all true.

Having said that, not too long ago I was 'caught' by something within an appliance which looked just like an opaque version of a bit of standard 'connector block' - and it was only after I had pulled out a fair bit of hair during my troubleshooting that I eventually twigged that what appeared to be 'opposite ends' of the same 'connector' were not connected!! ... another reminder 'never to assume', I guess!

Kind Regards, John

Thank you for your replies I understand a little more now

So, if a modern light fitting was to be fitted with no rose would the neutral to the switch only have to be terminated with the fitting neutral or would the fitting neutral need to be terminated with all the other loop neutrals?

Apologies in advance if I am confused

So, if a modern light fitting was to be fitted with no rose would the neutral to the switch only have to be terminated with the fitting neutral or would the fitting neutral need to be terminated with all the other loop neutrals?
There will not usually be a neutral to the switch. There will often/usually be a blue- (or black-) insulated conductor (which should really be over-sleeved with brown {or red}) used as a 'switched live' going to the switch, but there would not usually be a neutral. ... see the link which BAS has posted.

Kind Regards, John

There will not usually be a neutral to the switch.
It's becoming more usual with every passing year.
Maybe, but I think it will be very many years before it comes anything other than 'not usual' in relation to domestic light wiring in general.

Kind Regards, John

Interesting word, 'usual'.

It means the most normal, frequent or regular type, habitually or typically occurring or done, customary.

And yet would you agree that the threshold at which most people would stop regarding something as 'unusual' is probably quite a lot lower than that at which they would start to regard it as 'usual'?

"Unusual" and "not usual" don't really mean the same, maybe I should have said "It's becoming less unusual with every passing year" - I think we will get to the stage where it's stopped being unusual sooner than your prediction for it to be other than "not usual".

And yet would you agree that the threshold at which most people would stop regarding something as 'unusual' is probably quite a lot lower than that at which they would start to regard it as 'usual'? .... "Unusual" and "not usual" don't really mean the same, maybe I should have said "It's becoming less unusual with every passing year"
Indeed. There are many examples of things which, at first sight, might appear to simply be the corollaries of one another (hence between them covering 'everything') when the reality is that there is some (often large) 'grey area' in between them. Perhaps one of the most dramatic examples, which I see all the time, relates to 'statistical significance' (of differences, changes or whatever). At 'one end' one can have the desired degree of confidence (most commonly 95%) that two things are 'significantly different'. At the other end one can have the desired degree of confidence (whatever) that the two things are 'not significantly different'. However, in between those two extremes is a range of possible situations in which one cannot be 95% (or whatever) confident of anything!

More generally, I would say that it is almost the rule, rather than the exception, that perceptions/emotions tend to single out extremes, leaving a large area of uncertainty/ambivalence in between them. For example, one can 'like' or 'not like' a person/food/drink/holiday destination/make of electrical accessory/ etc. etc. - but there very commonly will be many things in between 'like' and 'not like' which are just 'OK' (or 'not too bad')!

So, yes, it might not be a vast number of years before neutrals at switches become 'not unusual' as a general finding in domestic lighting circuits - but I would expect it to be an extremely long time before it becomes 'usual'.

Kind Regards, John

The current rose will be replaced with this 3 spot ceiling plate. However as there is a terminal block attached I just wondered if there is room to terminate all 4 neutrals? I realise the 5 lives can be terminated separately.

Or would the electrician separate the fitting wires and terminate all in a separate block but terminate the earths to the fitting terminal block?

Your new light has 4 connectors just like your ceiling rose has.

If the wires won't physically fit, the electrician will just replace the connectors with slightly larger ones.

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