the house is 17th century. i've no idea how much space there is under the floorboards, the boards run vertically too which one guy said was a problem. i will try to think of another place to put the ensuite. the room is small as it is so i didnt want to put the ensuite in the room but if it would be easier maybe i could open out the cupboards to make the room bigger and then put the ensuite on the other side of the room so its up against an outside wall. hadnt thought of that before. if its on the outside it doesnt need to go via the bathroom? it can just go straight out? i'll suggest it to the latest plumber and see what he says. there are no registered plumbing association guys in my postcode area, i tried the website. may need to bring someone in from elsewhere and put him up for a few days, or maybe weeks!!!! thanks for all your suggestions, been trying to sort this out since august!