Even Keir doesn’t want 'open borders' to help the NHS.

[carmanmemoranda]

That isn't true based on the under cover reporter findings. Quite a few under cover reporters have exposed the networks linking the smugglers to customers. These are serious gangsters operating in Calais and wider France. Calais is a nasty place when I cross with a vehicle I tend to opt for Dieppe now despite the extra journey time. I feel sorry for the people who live there. The local authorities seem to think the answer is to move them on the UK asap, but that just encourages more to come.

‘We thank your government for our full pockets’ – Calais smugglers speak

As the UK pours millions into security measures, migrants say the gangs who control the Channel just get more powerful

www.theguardian.com

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...nce-in-the-jungle-as-pressure-rises-97lgvvmc2

The Gangs of Calais

I wanted to understand the gangs that smuggle refugees into the U.K., so I infiltrated one. For months, I pretended to be an economic migrant from Pakistan stuck in France. I wanted to understand how gangs managed to move refugees and migrants across the sea from Calais to Dover.

newlinesmag.com

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62832633/

With Italy set to take a tougher stance - it may be a little harder.

So if undercover reporters can find all this out, do you never question why our Government isnt doing anything to disrupt them ?
Keeps coming back to the same point, does our Government want to do much about it , or just keep it as an issue for support from the right wing?

 

[motorbiking]

How would our government operate intelligence gathering in France etc.?

I find it impossible to believe that our Government wants to spend £3Bn and rising on this increasing problem. That is without the cost of the criminal economy created by the gangs and workers.

 

[Bod ...]

Heart breaking . I don't know the answer but filling the UK isn't the answer

 

[Pat ex]

I find it impossible to believe that our Government wants to spend £3Bn and rising on this increasing problem.

If the world collectively stopped to analyse what causes migration, and collectively looked for ways to accommodate it, it would cease to be a problem.
Most western, developed countries are partly responsible for the current migration. But it's the undeveloped countries that have to carry the heaviest burden.

 

[Notch7]

So if undercover reporters can find all this out, do you never question why our Government isnt doing anything to disrupt them ?
Keeps coming back to the same point, does our Government want to do much about it , or just keep it as an issue for support from the right wing?

asylum seeker processing has fallen dramatically.

Its clear to me the govt doesn’t want to solve the problem

 

[Pat ex]

Heart breaking . I don't know the answer but filling the UK isn't the answer

That's a nonsense sentiment because other countries take most of the asylum seekers. Only a fraction apply in UK.

 

[Notch7]

but filling the UK isn't the answer

It isn’t really though, the number of asylum seekers is way less than in 2003.

 

[Pat ex]

asylum seeker processing has fallen dramatically.

Its clear to me the govt doesn’t want to solve the problem

They even appear to want to exacerbate the problem.

 

[Notch7]

This is where you using a law knocked up in 1951 is so out of date in 2022

No it isn’t.

The refugee convention was created to give rights for people fleeing war or persecution.

Do you think Syrians Fleeing Putins bombs is any different to somebody fleeing bombs in 1950s?
maybe you think modern bombs are more friendly.

 

[Bod ...]

It isn’t really though, the number of asylum seekers is way less than in 2003.

Whoo hoo

 

[carmanmemoranda]

How would our government operate intelligence gathering in France etc.?

I find it impossible to believe that our Government wants to spend £3Bn and rising on this increasing problem. That is without the cost of the criminal economy created by the gangs and workers.

Erm, how do undercover reporters find out.

it can't be that hard, I doubt if the papers spent millions to find it out

 

[Pat ex]

This is where you using a law knocked up in 1951 is so out of date in 2022.

No it isn’t.

The refugee convention was created to give rights for people fleeing war or persecution.

It wasn't a "law knocked up". It was a Convention agreed between 24 countries, the UN High Commissioner and other bodies such s the International Refugee Agency and other NGO bodies.

One could argue, and I would not disagree, that the UNHCR does not go far enough in seeking an international forum for dealing with migrant crises and resettling of refugees.
But I recognise the difficulties in this area and salute the achievements of the UNHCR.

As of 31 December 2021, UNHCR was serving 12.1 million people in Europe,

https://www.unhcr.org/europe.html

And UK complains loud and long about a fraction that make it to UK. Asylum seekers make up about 0.25% of the UK population.

 

[motorbiking]

I think there is an argument for reform.

The UK has around 9.6M foreign born, around 10% are illegal immigrants and the population [total] has grown 20% over the last 10 years. By contrast, Germany's population has remained fairly static for the last 30 years.

Despite occupying a country 2/3rds the size of France, our population has grown to the same in recent years.

We do however enjoy a significantly lower unemployment rate than most EU countries of a similar size other than Germany.

 

[Pat ex]

I think there is an argument for reform.

The UK has around 9.6M foreign born, around 10% are illegal immigrants and the population [total] has grown 20% over the last 10 years. By contrast, Germany's population has remained fairly static for the last 30 years.

Despite occupying a country 2/3rds the size of France, our population has grown to the same in recent years.

We do however enjoy a significantly lower unemployment rate than most EU countries of a similar size other than Germany.

Another carefully selected comparative model. Mottie would be proud of that one.
Do you have the comparative data for Germany's foreign born population?
We uindoubtedly measure unemployment by different criteria than other countries, so that is not a fair and equitable comparison.

In 1980 UK was already in the top 4 (including Russia) and Germany was just West Germany then.

In the top 3 by 1990
With very little change in UK population.

Back in 4th spot by 2000, with still not a great deal of increase. But France about to overtake UK.

By 2010 UK was in 5th spot with all countries experiencing some significant increases.

By 2020, still in 5fh spot with all countries again experiencing significant increases.

I have frozen some slides around the decade, in order to avoid countries changing places which does not affect the main point of the slides.

All slides from here:

 

[carmanmemoranda]

I think there is an argument for reform.

The UK has around 9.6M foreign born, around 10% are illegal immigrants and the population [total] has grown 20% over the last 10 years. By contrast, Germany's population has remained fairly static for the last 30 years.

Despite occupying a country 2/3rds the size of France, our population has grown to the same in recent years.

We do however enjoy a significantly lower unemployment rate than most EU countries of a similar size other than Germany.

Do you have any facts for your 10% are illegal immigrants?

If they are illegal immigrants, the real question is surely, what is being done about them ?