Expansion vessel full of water

[WhoMe?]

Hi

Sorry for another expansion vessel question but I can find this asked previously

Had my boiler service yesterday and the engineer said it is full of water and it needs to be drained. He didn't mention anything about having popped. I pressed the valve and zero water came out. I replaced the vessel last year.

If I understood him correctly it's filled with water because it's too small for the size of the system. The service engineer last year also said it was too small but it was the old vessel then.

Am I right in saying that the best thing to do is empty the water in the meantime and get a plumber to fit a second vessel? I'm tempted to try myself but might play it safe. Do I empty the vessel by just partially undoing the metal hose (sure it has a propper name) and let it slowly drain out, will there be a lot of pressure behind that water? Can I just turn the boiler off or do I drain it first? I'll obviously recharge it afterwards.

The boiler is a grant vortex pro 36

Thanks

 

[cross thread]

Do not undo the connection if the system is under pressure

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Am I right in saying that the best thing to do is empty the water in the meantime and get a plumber to fit a second vessel? I'm tempted to try myself but might play it safe. Do I empty the vessel by just partially undoing the metal hose (sure it has a propper name) and let it slowly drain out, will there be a lot of pressure behind that water? Can I just turn the boiler off or do I drain it first? I'll obviously recharge it afterwards.

Inside the EV, is a flexible diaphragm. Intended to have water on one side, air under pressure on the other - the two kept apart by the diaphragm. Idea is, it allow the water in your system to expand, as it heats up, by pushing against the diaphragm, and compressing the air in the air side. The air side pressure is topped up via a car tyre type valve, using a car tyre type pump.

If the EV fails, the diaphragm leaks and allows water into the air side, so you get water coming out of the air valve - is that what is happening?

 

[WhoMe?]

No, no water coming out but it's very heavy with water. Water drops slightly over a few days and the engineer said it's because the EV is full of water. Sounded to me that there's too much water in there that can't push out by itself. I could be wrong

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

No, no water coming out but it's very heavy with water. Water drops slightly over a few days and the engineer said it's because the EV is full of water. Sounded to me that there's too much water in there that can't push out by itself. I could be wrong

In that case, it simply needs the pressure in the EV to be pumped up, no water = nowt wrong with it. How simple can it be, are you sure he is a plumber, it's fairly basic stuff, checking and pumping up an EV?

If the EV is low is air pressure, then the water will have no where to expand into, when it gets hot. The result is that the Pressure Release Valve will open at around 3bar, to release the excess pressure. The PRV, will probably connected to a short bit of bit of pipe, which pokes out through an outside wall, likely behind the boiler. On the outside, there will be an elbow, pipe, then a second elbow pointing back at the wall - this is so that any sudden release of hot water, runs down the wall, rather than hitting a passer- by in the face.

The way to check is water is escaping via the PRV, is to simply fasten a sandwich bag over the end. If if fills, your PRV is releasing water.

There, you probably know more than your 'plumber' now..

 

[CBW]

How big is the system? Eg, how many rads?

 

[CBW]

it's fairly basic stuff, checking and pumping up an EV?

You’d be surprised. I didn’t know certain basic things a good few years ago, as I had never done it previously and nobody showed me the correct way. I learnt on here via a good friend.

 

[WhoMe?]

In that case, it simply needs the pressure in the EV to be pumped up, no water = nowt wrong with it. How simple can it be, are you sure he is a plumber, it's fairly basic stuff, checking and pumping up an EV?

He was from Certas. Said his tools were robbed from his van and had no pump to pump up again. Said I should try calling H/O to get another engineer out

The way to check is water is escaping via the PRV, is to simply fasten a sandwich bag over the end. If if fills, your PRV is releasing water

Its an external boiler and the condensing pipe/drain is all sealed and connected to an outside drain. Will this be the same drain for the prv? I'll see if there's a easy place to disconnect.

If I need to drain water is it simply, boiler off, release air from the EV and slowly undo metal hose and upside down it?

Thanks a lot for your help

 

[WhoMe?]

How big is the system? Eg, how many rads?

12 rads and underfloor heating in kitch/diner

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

e was from Certas. Said his tools were robbed from his van and had no pump to pump up again. Said I should try calling H/O to get another engineer out

Then how can he expect to manage to do a service, without the proper tools. Ring H/O and tell them you want the service you have paid for, done and done properly.

Its an external boiler and the condensing pipe/drain is all sealed and connected to an outside drain. Will this be the same drain for the prv? I'll see if there's a easy place to disconnect.

No, the PRV pipe should act as a 'tell tale'. It should not be regularly releasing pressure, if in fact it is.

If I need to drain water is it simply, boiler off, release air from the EV and slowly undo metal hose and upside down it?

No, there is absolutely no point in your doing that - the EV pressure needs to be topped up, and all your issues will disappear. Get them back, to do the service properly.

What you could do, if you have a bike pump, is release the water pressure by bleeding it out from a radiator, then pump air into the EV, upto 1.5bar, then top your water pressure back up - but you should not need to be doing any of that, you have paid for a service.

 

[CBW]

12 rads and underfloor heating in kitch/diner

Wouldn’t have thought an extra expansion vessel would achieve much, other than take up expansion from the one that is now flat.

 

[WhoMe?]

Thank you Harry, I will call them on Monday. The guy said empty the water from the EV directly but it seems that's not needed.

I'll have a search for another pipe outlet, tomorrow

Wouldn’t have thought an extra expansion vessel would achieve much, other than take up expansion from the one that is now flat.

Strange, maybe my house looks bigger from the outside. This engineer said the EV filled up because it's not big enough.

Ta

 

[CBW]

This engineer said the EV filled up because it's not big enough.

If you have expansion issues with a charged (pumped up) expansion vessel, then additional one might be needed, but as yours is flat, this is why it’s full of water as when the water is heated, it has nowhere to expand to. When you pump up an expansion vessel, you expel the water via an open connection, often at the boiler or a low drain off on the heating system.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

This engineer said the EV filled up because it's not big enough.

Nope - it filled up, because there was no air pressure in it, to prevent it filling up..

 

[Madrab]

The guy said empty the water from the EV directly but it seems that's not needed

Re-charging the vessel will force the water out of the vessel, as long as the system pressure has been released and a vent/drain is left open as the vessel is being charged up.

Any EV, whether it's large or not will fill up with water anyway when the system heats up and the water expands, that's the way it works. When the system is cold and under normal pressure, ~1bar, then the pre-charge pressure in the vessel pushes the water out of the EV and into the system, as the system runs and heats up the water expands, the pressure increases and forces water up into the vessel, as the air can be compressed, then it does absorbing that increase in pressure and stops the system from overpressurising.

If the EV is undersized, it means that the system water volume and pressure increase is greater than the vessel can absorb, the system pressure then rises to the point that the PRV may lift.

As suggested though, they should be doing it - oh and the EV pre-charge won't need to be up as high as 1.5 bar, no more than 1bar would normally be required.