Hi there, i'd like some advice on whether the following is correct or should I be worried! I'm having my kitchen refitted and this requires several new sockets. The fitter has extended the existing ring main (crimped connections - so OK there). However he is using 1.5mm cable rather than 2.5mm (the existing ring main is 2.5mm). Supply is protected by 32A type B MCB / RCD as you'd expect. A 'part P' sparky has already certified part of it- so I guess he is happy with it - the rest is to be done today and made live. I didn't think you could run a 1.5mm ring on a 32A MCB - I thought 20A max. As you've guessed I'm NOT an electrician but have had a bit of experience but with all the new Part P regs, I don't do any work myself and leave it to the 'experts'.
Extending ring main with 1.5mm cable
- Thread starter Jimbo785
- Start date
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H
holmslaw
..
Holmslaw, Thanks - I was afraid you say something along those lines! Can confirm that there is no supplementary fused connections to the main ring - so it's not a fused radial circuit or similar. He's definitely 'broken' the exisiting ring at a redundant socket and used the 2 legs to extend the ring at this point feeding the new sockets. So the existing 2.5mm cable is physically joined to the new 1.5mm cable at both legs, with no extra circuit protection.
Sounds as if neither the kitchen fitter or his 'electrician' mate that certified the install are particularly competent, then.
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You need to report everybody concerned (the fitter, the electrician, the companies they work for and whichever kitchen company subbed to them if you didn't employ them yourself) to Trading Standards and Building Control and whichever body the electrician claims to be a member of.
Between then they have contravened the wiring regulations, and broken the law (the Building Regulations and the Construction (Design and Management) Regulations), and possibly committed fraud.
Between then they have contravened the wiring regulations, and broken the law (the Building Regulations and the Construction (Design and Management) Regulations), and possibly committed fraud.
I seem to have lost touch with reality.
Could somebody please remind my why our esteemed government (with some help) brought in Building Regulations Part P??
Could somebody please remind my why our esteemed government (with some help) brought in Building Regulations Part P??
H
holmslaw
..
I seem to have lost touch with reality.
Could somebody please remind my why our esteemed government (with some help) brought in Building Regulations Part P??
oooh...oooh.. I know that one Sir...!!!...
It was to stop the competent electrician who doesn't do domestic electrics very often from finding a job without having to pay £600 up front to join a scheme... for 3 foreigners a year....
H
holmslaw
It was to stop the competent electrician who doesn't do domestic electrics very often from finding a job without having to pay £600 up front to join a scheme... for 3 foreigners a year....
Well said CJ.
Oh yes, thanks - I had forgotten.
Hey Jungletoblerski - do they even have electricity where you live?
Hey Jungletoblerski - do they even have electricity where you live?
OK guys, thanks for all the input. I need to sort this problem out and as far as I can see I have 4 choices:
1) Get them to rip out all the 1.5mm and replace with 2.5mm as they should have done to start with. I know this is the ideal answer but this is going to be a massive job - half of it is already tiled over and units up.
2) drop the MCB down from 32A to 20A - not ideal even if this is legal - can anyone answer if this is legally OK? Maybe a temporary solution to stop the wires cooking if the worst comes to the worst.
3) Put the original ring back to how it was but then run a separate circuit to the new '1.5mm mini ring' - i.e continue the 1.5mm back to the consumer unit and have it's own dedicated 20A MCB - fortunately, where the new 1.5mm joins the 2.5mm is on the wall separating the garage (where the consumer unit is located) so it could be done by an extra circuit through the garage. and not having to knock down half the kitched to get to it. i.e. have a complete 1.5mm ring on it's own dedicated 20A circuit.
4) And finally - would it be legal to feed the 1.5mm ring from the 2.5mm ring via a fused 20A spur - similar to above but without having to run a new circuit back to the consumer unit and using up an extra way in the consumer unit.
I'm going to speak to the electrician tomorrow and just want to know what options are feasible and what are not.
1) Get them to rip out all the 1.5mm and replace with 2.5mm as they should have done to start with. I know this is the ideal answer but this is going to be a massive job - half of it is already tiled over and units up.
2) drop the MCB down from 32A to 20A - not ideal even if this is legal - can anyone answer if this is legally OK? Maybe a temporary solution to stop the wires cooking if the worst comes to the worst.
3) Put the original ring back to how it was but then run a separate circuit to the new '1.5mm mini ring' - i.e continue the 1.5mm back to the consumer unit and have it's own dedicated 20A MCB - fortunately, where the new 1.5mm joins the 2.5mm is on the wall separating the garage (where the consumer unit is located) so it could be done by an extra circuit through the garage. and not having to knock down half the kitched to get to it. i.e. have a complete 1.5mm ring on it's own dedicated 20A circuit.
4) And finally - would it be legal to feed the 1.5mm ring from the 2.5mm ring via a fused 20A spur - similar to above but without having to run a new circuit back to the consumer unit and using up an extra way in the consumer unit.
I'm going to speak to the electrician tomorrow and just want to know what options are feasible and what are not.
first of all, are you absolutely certain it's only 1.5mm they put in?
if it is then it's their fault and they should cop for the repairs and re-tiling.. that's why they have insurance..
433.1.5 says that rings MUST be wired in minimum 2.5mm² live and neutral...
if you manage to find a supplier of a 20A fused spur, let us all know.. it would be usefull to know that they made one...
13A is the highest that the plug type fuses go..
if it is then it's their fault and they should cop for the repairs and re-tiling.. that's why they have insurance..
433.1.5 says that rings MUST be wired in minimum 2.5mm² live and neutral...
if you manage to find a supplier of a 20A fused spur, let us all know.. it would be usefull to know that they made one...
13A is the highest that the plug type fuses go..
It's worth checking it's definitely 1.5mm, it could be that the existing ring was wired in a larger cable for some reason, so they have used 2.5mm for the new bits, but because it's a larger cable before, it looks like 1.5 if you see what I mean?
Thanks guys - can definitely confirm 1.5mm - I used to do a lot of my own work before the regs changed and still have a drum of 'propper' 2.5mm in the loft. Anyway I got suspicious about the small cables and had a closer look - sure enough found the drum of 1.5mm he'd been using in one of the cupboards (labelled up). P.S we have some downlighters on a 3A fused spur from the new ring using 1.0mm cable (quite correct) so haven't got mixed up with a drum of this - i.e using 1.5mm for the lights and 2.5 for the ring. I wish I was wrong - but can't see it I'm afraid. And finally it's 1.5mm PVC not mineral which I believe is OK for ring main (though I guess even with mineral insulated you can't mix and match 1.5 mineral with 2.5 PVC!)
On the 20A spur question - I was thinking along the lines of a single breaker consumer unit on 20A MCB rather than cartridge fuse - similar arrangement to sending power to external garage/shed i.e:
32A MCB------>2.5mm ring-------->20A MCB------->1.5mm ring
I know I'm clutching at straws!!!!!
On the 20A spur question - I was thinking along the lines of a single breaker consumer unit on 20A MCB rather than cartridge fuse - similar arrangement to sending power to external garage/shed i.e:
32A MCB------>2.5mm ring-------->20A MCB------->1.5mm ring
I know I'm clutching at straws!!!!!
Def. agree with all B-A-S says plus others AND 1.5 is only good for 20A if surface-'clipped direct' other methods can lower it to 10A so although a major problem IT's their problem not yours, probably didn't have 2.5mm on van so thought they would get away with fooling unknowing customer,
stick to your guns especially if being done thro' one of the sheds who will put pressure on them.
stick to your guns especially if being done thro' one of the sheds who will put pressure on them.
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