Extending socket cable

[Fordy81]

I want to put a socket outside and plan on using the existing cable from the inside socket on the same wall, which I will remove and plasterboard patch the wall.

However, the current cable won't reach to the back of the outside socket as it's not long enough to go through the cavity etc.

Is it possible to extend this wire via connector blocks, or is this bad practice? I presume it's a no-no due to not having access to it once the inside wall is repaired?

So is my only other option to follow the cable back up the wall to the ceiling void under the floorboards and do the connection there? I do have flexible rods so it won't be too much trouble.

I think I may have answered my own question but would prefer opinions from people in the know.

Thanks.

 

[Taylortwocities]

You must not cover it over if there are screw terminals in there
You must not cover it over if the live cables are to remain in the wall @ less than 50mm from the surface.

Why not leave the socket there and just spur off it to the outside - that's the usual way?

 

[JohnW2]

Why not leave the socket there and just spur off it to the outside - that's the usual way?

Indeed ... or, if the OP really doesn't want the existing socket to remain, replace it with a blank plate and make the 'joint' using a connector block (or Wago connectors) within the socket's back box. However, as you imply, sockets are always useful

Th new socket will, of course, need RCD protection.

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

Best option would be to fit an FCU ( double pole fused ) in place of the socket and use that to feed the outside socket. Then when the outside socket is soaked with rain water it can be be fully isolated ( Live and Neutral ) to prevent it tripping the RCD.

 

[JohnW2]

Best option would be to fit an FCU ( double pole fused ) in place of the socket and use that to feed the outside socket. Then when the outside socket is soaked with rain water it can be be fully isolated ( Live and Neutral ) to prevent it tripping the RCD.

If the existing socket is, and the new one will also be, a single socket on a legitimate unfused spur from a ring final circuit (or part of a radial circuit, or a spur which is already fused)) (and not 'a spur from an unfused spur' from a ring final circuit), then there's really no need for an FCU - but a double pole switch/isolator would be a good idea, for the reason you mention.

... which reminds me of something I should have mentioned before. If the existing socket is an unfused spur from a ring final, then TTCs suggestion of retaining the existing socket and spurring the new one off it obviously would not be acceptable.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Fordy81]

Sorry, I should have said I plan to put a corner radiator in that location which would end up covering the existing inside socket.

Can you clarify what you mean by being an unfused spur from the ring final? Is this something easily identifiable?

 

[JohnW2]

Sorry, I should have said I plan to put a corner radiator in that location which would end up covering the existing inside socket.

Right. That clearly makes things more difficult. The main problem here is that most types of join in a cable have to remain 'accessible' (for inspection, maintenance and testing) and I don't think that behind a radiator would qualify, even if only behind a 'blanking plate'. One exception to that rule is if the cables are joined by crimping - so you might want to consider getting an electrician to do that for you. However, as has been said, it's desirable that you should have a means of isolating the outside socket, in case it fills up with water, which would mean find a way of locating a switch/isolator.

Can you clarify what you mean by being an unfused spur from the ring final? Is this something easily identifiable?

Given what you say above, it becomes less important, but an 'unfused spur' is a single cable taken directly from a ring final final circuit (usually from a socket in the ring) to supply one socket. Such a spur is only allowed to supply one socket - so, if that's what you have, you would not have been able to do as TTC suggested and keep the existing socket with a new one also taken ('spurred') from that first one.

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Sorry, I should have said I plan to put a corner radiator in that location which would end up covering the existing inside socket.

If that is the case you then need to, remove the socket, as it would not be accessible. But by removing the socket that might have further implication on other sockets and power outlets on this circuit.
This could end up being can of worms, as you could end up having to remove and reroute parts of this circuit.

Can you clarify what you mean by being an unfused spur from the ring final? Is this something easily identifiable?

This would be when an additional socket has been taken directly from a socket on the ring final circuit, the ring is not extended as just a singe cable is taken to the additional socket.
A fused spur would be when a fused connection unit is fitted at the intersection of the cable for the new socket.
Regulation do not allow for more than one socket outlet (this can be a single or double gang) to be taken from a socket on the ring final circuit, using the unfused spur method.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

One exception to that rule is if the cables are joined by crimping

The danger here is if I am understanding the dilemma correctly, is that by removing the accessory, this could well be removing the identifiable permitted safe route of the cable.

I think the OP requires an electrician on site.

 

[JohnW2]

One exception to that rule is if the cables are joined by crimping

The danger here is if I am understanding the dilemma correctly, is that by removing the accessory, this could well be removing the identifiable permitted safe route of the cable.

Agreed - and, in any event, as you know, I am no lover of hand crimping (particularly of solid conductors) at the best of times.

I think the OP requires an electrician on site.

That's probably true. Dare I suggest that this might possibly be a situation in which common sense might eventually prevail over strict compliance with regulations?

Kind Regards, John

 

[64bits]

As you suggested in your question you could..

Remove the old unwanted socket and run a new spur from the ceiling void that feeds new outdoor socket.

There are a few conditions that must be met for this to be acceptable.
IF the old socket was fed as a single spur from final ring. AND the final ring itself is protected by RCD in the CU. You could run a new cable to the new socket and feed it from where the old one was connected with the final ring.
Oh and by the way, The new socket must be waterproof!

I personally would fit an impact resistant polycarbonate IP66 (min) outdoor twin socket with RCD protection.

- Get a good one, Dont be cheap when it comes to electrical safety!
Over the years I have replaced many outdoor socket boxes that had been selected 'because it was the cheapest', They all failed for various reasons, including;failed RCDs, cracked/broken housing, broken door, broken/rusted hinges, door missing, unit not sealed, water ingress, damaged seals, seals missing,etc, mostly due to poor quality materials or just bad design. The only thing they all had in common was they were all cheap and had a very short time to failure.

- The worst I have found so far was a unit bought online for £9 from a supplier in China. It was described as EZIFIX IP66 RCD GARDEN SOCKET. From the outside the unit looked cheaply made and felt 'a bit thin'. On internal inspection the unit had what can only be described as a 'fake' RCD with a push button that did nothing and a small amber neon above it wired across the supply terminals. There was also inadequate water ingress protection with large gaps in the rubber seals. (The unit and suppliers info was sent to trading standards for investigation)

A decent quality impact resistant IP66 outdoor twin socket unit with RCD protection should be about £40 to £60 ish with top end stuff from about £70 to over £100 each.

EDIT: intended to add indoor isolator for outdoor socket disconnection, got sidetracked by -dodgy box-

-If you are unsure, DON`T BODGE IT, get a proper sparky to sort it out, It may hurt your wallet a little but it could save your house or your life!

 

[JohnW2]

IF the old socket was fed as a single spur from final ring. AND the final ring itself is protected by RCD in the CU. You could run a new cable to the new socket and feed it from where the old one was connected with the final ring.

One could - but, as has been pointed out, once the existing socket has been removed (which it would obviously have to be) it could be difficult to find a safe zone in which to run the new cable. However, as has also been pointed out, it's really desirable that there should be indoor DP isolation for the outdoor socket - since even 'waterproof' ones have been known to fill up with water! At least if one fitted such an isolator somewhere, it might well solve the 'safe zone problem'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Fordy81]

As you suggested in your question you could..

Remove the old unwanted socket and run a new spur from the ceiling void that feeds new outdoor socket.

There are a few conditions that must be met for this to be acceptable.
IF the old socket was fed as a single spur from final ring. AND the final ring itself is protected by RCD in the CU. You could run a new cable to the new socket and feed it from where the old one was connected with the final ring.
Oh and by the way, The new socket must be waterproof!

I personally would fit an impact resistant polycarbonate IP66 (min) outdoor twin socket with RCD protection.

- Get a good one, Dont be cheap when it comes to electrical safety!
Over the years I have replaced many outdoor socket boxes that had been selected 'because it was the cheapest', They all failed for various reasons, including;failed RCDs, cracked/broken housing, broken door, broken/rusted hinges, door missing, unit not sealed, water ingress, damaged seals, seals missing,etc, mostly due to poor quality materials or just bad design. The only thing they all had in common was they were all cheap and had a very short time to failure.

- The worst I have found so far was a unit bought online for £9 from a supplier in China. It was described as EZIFIX IP66 RCD GARDEN SOCKET. From the outside the unit looked cheaply made and felt 'a bit thin'. On internal inspection the unit had what can only be described as a 'fake' RCD with a push button that did nothing and a small amber neon above it wired across the supply terminals. There was also inadequate water ingress protection with large gaps in the rubber seals. (The unit and suppliers info was sent to trading standards for investigation)

A decent quality impact resistant IP66 outdoor twin socket unit with RCD protection should be about £40 to £60 ish with top end stuff from about £70 to over £100 each.

EDIT: intended to add indoor isolator for outdoor socket disconnection, got sidetracked by -dodgy box-

-If you are unsure, DON`T BODGE IT, get a proper sparky to sort it out, It may hurt your wallet a little but it could save your house or your life!

The socket is RCD protected and is fed from the final ring.

However the location and installation of an isolation switch is beyond what I'm comfortable doing to be honest so will have to get a spark in.

But would something like this be suitable. http://www.screwfix.com/p/bg-nexus-13a-2g-dp-switched-socket/67928

Or should I get an RCD one? If so, Screwfix do passive and active ones. What's the difference?

Thanks to everyone taking the time to reply. It's much appreciated.

 

[Taylortwocities]

You do not need an RCD socket if the circuit is already RCD protected, so the one you have linked to is fine.

FYI this link explains the diference between active and passive RCDs.

 

[Fordy81]

You do not need an RCD socket if the circuit is already RCD protected, so the one you have linked to is fine.

FYI this link explains the diference between active and passive RCDs.

Sorry, what link?