Extending Socket Ring Main and adding a lighting spur

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Right First can I apoligise for just joining to post a thread.

Now onto the subject.

I'm hoping to add a second double socket to my dining room before I get the walls skimed. On top of this I want to run a spur from the only socket into the kitchen to power up the underlighters. I already have them fitted and running plugged into a socket and a switch on the wall.

If I pull the existing socket away from the wall it has 2 reds 2 blacks and 2 earths. I presume this is a standard ring main.

Now from reading this site I know I cant have 2 spurs from the same socket (correct me if I'm wrong). So my plan is to extend the ring to add the second socket and run a spur from the original socket. HOWEVER. I have no idea where the next socket in the ring is so my question is. Can I remove one side of the ring, wire the cable into a junction box hidden behind the plaster board and then run a cable from this junction box to the new socket, a cable from the junction box and then a cable from the new socket back to the old socket to complete the ring?

I intend to use 2.5mm cable for the ring extension and 1.5mm cable for the lighting spur.

I'm a wizz with car electrics but house electrics are something I am less then familier with so any advice or views on my plan would be appreciated.

Thanks

NitroNick
 
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Before you do anything, I suggest you at least search & read through the archive posts so you understand what you’re doing &, more importantly, what you’re permitted to do. What you plan is simple enough but the methods proposed could contravene both electrical & building regulations if not done correctly; & you could even be committing a criminal offence. Since 2005, undertaking any electrical work in a kitchen, bathroom or outside must be notified to Building Control unless carried out by a Part P certified electrician who will test on completion & issue a certificate of compliance!
 
Before you do anything, I suggest you at least search & read through the archive posts so you understand what you’re doing &, more importantly, what you’re permitted to do. What you plan is simple enough but the methods proposed could contravene both electrical & building regulations if not done correctly; & you could even be committing a criminal offence. Since 2005, undertaking any electrical work in a kitchen, bathroom or outside must be notified to Building Control unless carried out by a Part P certified electrician who will test on completion & issue a certificate of compliance!

Well thanks for the "advice" If you read my original post you will see that I have read the internet and am aware of Part P. However, having read this THREAD It is my understanding that what I am intending to do is classed as minor work.
Table 1 - Minor electrical installation works in dwelling that need not be notified
1. Additional lighting points (light fittings and switching) on an existing circuit. ( See Note 1
2. Adding socket-outlets to an existing ring or radial circuit.( See Note 1)

Reading further down I see that I am allowed to extend only 1 socket on the ring, which is my plan.

I am already aware that I can not run more then 2 spurs (here) and further digging in the forum has mad me aware that I can not hide any type of joint behind the wall , it must be accesible to be checked and tightened if required. From my research I also know that I can not run wires diagionaly. they need to be horizontal or verticle.

So I have done my reasearch, forumulated a plan and before I continue I joined posted a thread and asked for comments on the way I intened to do it. So if anyone has any specific comments I welcome them. For instance: Am I using the correct cable? Have I read and understood part P:Minor works correctly? Can I spur off a ring socket to supply a low voltage light circuit? Would I be better running the lighting cable down the wood work and plugging into a spare socket I have behind the fridge?

Thanks

NitroNick
 
Incidently, I have put the wall skim off by another day to give me plenty of time to find out where the next socket in the ring is to complete the ring correctly and not have any hidden joints.
 
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[Reading further down I see that I am allowed to extend only 1 socket on the ring, which is my plan.

...
...
...

Have I read and understood part P:Minor works correctly?

Thanks

NitroNick
Hi, I've also been reading up on this part P stuff as we are doing up a house built when a room only had one socket and plastic light fittings. So we need more sockets, which is what you are looking to do to.

What I've found is there are many interpretations out there in Internet land of what you can do legally. As you might expect, they don't all agree. Some organisations interpret the regulations in a way to maximise work for themselves, or their members.

So, lets look at the actual law, which is implemented by Statutory Instrument 2004 No. 3210, The Building (Amendment) (No.3) Regulations 2004. http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2004/20043210.htm Go down to SCHEDULE 2B and it tells you what you may do without 'permission'.

2. Work which -

(c) consists of -

(ii) adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit;
Note socket outlets, it's plural, so you can add more than one to the ring. The only requirement is that the ring already exists, putting one in is not in the list of allowable work without notification.

Above that are further obligations, namely
P1 Reasonable provision shall be made in the design, installation, inspection and testing of electrical installations in order to protect persons from fire or injury.

P2 Sufficient information shall be provided so that persons wishing to operate, maintain or alter an electrical installation can do so with reasonable safety
Which means you need to do it properly which is where the advice on here is valuable, as are the publications of various electrical organisations.

What is very interesting is that you can actually do work in a bathroom. The Law mentions 'zones', so if the work is outside the well accepted zones, you can do work without notification. My intepretation, anyway :) You won't read that on these other websites.....
 
2. Work which -

(c) consists of -

(ii) adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit;
Note socket outlets, it's plural, so you can add more than one to the ring. The only requirement is that the ring already exists, putting one in is not in the list of allowable work without notification.
The other requirement which you missed out of your quote is that it can't be in a special location or a kitchen.
 
Yes that is true, but I provided a link to the whole document I selectively quoted from.........

Cheers
 
Well thanks for the "advice" If you read my original post you will see that I have read the internet and am aware of Part P. However, having read this THREAD It is my understanding that what I am intending to do is classed as minor work.
Table 1 - Minor electrical installation works in dwelling that need not be notified

The thread you quote is dated 2003 & if you read MY POST you will see I advised (as plugwash also points out) that new legislation was introduced in 2005 which precludes such work in a special place; a Kitchen is a special place. Hope you find this "advice" helpfull!
 
chapeau, read Approved document P additional note d to table 1. Zoning does not come into it. If its "adding" work in a room containing a bath or shower then it is notifiable.

NitroNick - if you want to run a 1.5/1.0mm2 lighting cable off the 2.5/1.5mm2 ring then you'll need an FCU to protect the cable. And since it's adding lighting in a kitchen it is notifiable.
 
NitroNick - if you want to run a 1.5/1.0mm2 lighting cable off the 2.5/1.5mm2 ring then you'll need an FCU to protect the cable. And since it's adding lighting in a kitchen it is notifiable.

That is exactly what I thought, which is why I ran the 13amp plug lead to the plug socket behind the fridge. All Wiring is hidden so looks wise there is no difference.

I have just completed the work, just need to make good the plasterboard prior to skiming and I have a qualified electrician (friend of a friend buy a beer doen the pub type thing) coming round at the weekend to test the electric sockets I have fitted.

As A test I pluged 4 high drain appliances into the sockets (elec heater,tv,hoover and ran my drill) and neither the RCD or the trip switch cut in so am confident that the new sockets are wired correctly and more imprtantly safe.

Richard C

Yes the thread was made in 2003 but relates to the legislation that came in in 2005. All I was trying to reassure you was that, as you suggested, I had done my reasearch before carrying out any work. Thank You
 
Nick, the legislation was amended again in 2006, but the changes do not apply to what you want to do.

chapeau, read Approved document P additional note d to table 1. Zoning does not come into it. If its "adding" work in a room containing a bath or shower then it is notifiable.

Yes, that is what the approved document suggests, but that document has disclaimers all over it. It says it is General Guidance, not The Law.

What 'The Law' says is (link above)

"special location" means a location within the limits of the relevant zones specified for a bath, a shower, a swimming or paddling pool or a hot air sauna in the Wiring Regulations, sixteenth edition, published by the Institution of Electrical Engineers and the British Standards Institution as BS 7671: 2001 and incorporating amendments 1 and 2."

Not saying it is a good idea, but The Law lets you do it......
 
Nick

I applaud your research but there are major concerns still.

Two reds, two blacks and two earths into a socket doesn't mean it's on a ring. It could just as easily be part way along a radial. You don't mention what you are running from this double socket but if it is on a radial you may be close to or over its limit.

Perhaps you've got a huge TV but I'd hardly call it a high drain appliance - 150W maybe; hoover maybe 1200W; drill maybe 700W - none exactly high drain. Think washing machine; tumble drier; fan heaters; water heaters.

If only testing was as simple as plugging in a few appliances and seeing that they run. For example - how do you know the earth wires have remained connected when you screwed the sockets back onto the back box? A proper test either at the socket or at the consumer unit would tell you that.

Glad your mate is coming to test your sockets - most professional electricians will not test and certificate work undertaken by someone else - with good reason. I hope it's all been notified.
 
Thanks for the concerns there Cremeegg.

The most the sockets are going to run is a vacum cleaner and several mobile phone chargers. Maybe a set of xmas lights!

Obviously I will wait till this guy runs a test on it for me at the weekend.

Incidently, what test's can they do? Is it a case of plugging in a test box or can you do a simple multi-meter test of some sort?
 

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