Flashing LED’s

[Pinklillie81]

Hi all. I’ve just replaced 96 halogen spotlight bulbs in my home to LEDs… trying to save money on electric! For some reason I’m some rooms, the led bulb is flashing. If I replace it back to the halogen it stops flashing. The actual LED bulb isn’t faulty as I can, for instance, put it in the spot next to the flashing one and it won’t flash… any help would be greately appreciated! Cheers

 

[Colin Brenton]

Are they 12v or 240v bulbs?

Mad question, but do they flash when they should be on, or when they should be off?

 

[Pinklillie81]

Hi, these are the exact bulbs….
LAP GU5.3 MR16 LED Light Bulb 345lm 5W
They flash when they are on

 

[333rocky333]

Are they Mr16 type 12 volt lamps, if so they are usually not as easy as a straight swop, the transformer types will need to be assessed for suitability

 

[Pinklillie81]

They are M16 12v apparently! I don’t understand why in the same room, say out of 13 bulbs, just 1 will flash? Surely they should all flash or not? Sorry I’m new to electric!

 

[bsr]

The transformers often have a minimum load. LED bulbs use much less energy than the originals. It may be that in your room of 13 bulbs they are set up as 4 transformers each with three bulbs and one transformer with the remaining bulb. Therefore only some of the transformers are below the minimum load which causes them to flash.

 

[ericmark]

VA is near enough same as watts, so if the electronic transformer says 20 - 105 VA it means it needs a load of 20 to 105 watts, and these are real watts. I have see many LED's for sale which say

and I can see how anyone buying them thinks they are 60 watt, where really only 8.8 watt. This

is common for an electronic transformer it states 20-70 VA for each lamp, a toroidal lighting transformer like this one will go to zero output, however they will not fit through the hole normally made for 12 volt lights, Dimensions: Height: 74mm. Diameter: 63mm. Also at £19 each not cheap, and looking at website where I got picture non left.

Moving from extra low voltage to low voltage (12 to 230 volt) seems the easy way out, but

A circuit protective conductor shall be run to and terminated at each point in wiring and at each accessory except a lampholder having no exposed-conductive-parts and suspended from such a point.

is often a problem, as often the extra low voltage lamps only use two core not two core and earth to the lamps.

As to if your worried about not following rules is up to you, adaptors at £1.64 are cheap enough, as packs of 10 the whole lamp only costs around £3.

But I am sure that's not what you want to hear.

One idea is to rearrange so more lamps on each transformer, however most transformers say no more than 0.5 meters of extra low voltage cable, as output from electronic transformers can be in the kHz range and with too long a cable they can become mini transmitters.

 

[JohnW2]

..... but ....

A circuit protective conductor shall be run to and terminated at each point in wiring and at each accessory except a lampholder having no exposed-conductive-parts and suspended from such a point.

is often a problem, as often the extra low voltage lamps only use two core not two core and earth to the lamps.

That extract from BS7671 surely relates to "each point in wiring and at each accessory" of the electrical installation, and not to an item of Class II equipment fed by the installation, doesn't it?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

That extract from BS7671 surely relates to "each point in wiring and at each accessory" of the electrical installation, and not to an item of Class II equipment fed by the installation, doesn't it?

It states except for suspended lamp holder, so it is quite plain if not suspended i.e. fixed to the ceiling it includes it. You know as well as I do the rules changed in 1966, up to then you did not need an earth to the lights.

There are a few rules where people seem to want to debate meaning the reference to

Purpose. Single-core cables that are coloured green-and-yellow ~

seems people miss the full stop.

(iv) reduce the possibility of unwanted tripping of RCD's due to excessive protective conductor currents produced
by equipment in normal operation

I would have said that means twin RCD's do not comply in most cases, except for very small homes, yet we see twin RCD consumer units being the norm.

As to if designed so people could wangle out of it I don't know, what I would say we are worried about is rental accommodation and some pedantic jobs worth awarding a code C2. I know I have bent the rules, and I am sure you have, however if some one calls an electrician to do some work, and that electrician says sorry I need to tread in some new cables to include the earth, we can't say he is wrong.

I will admit I am not sure about a tank thermostat with the green/yellow over sleeved, since on flex, and held to the tank with a spring around the tank, is the cable part of the in service electrical equipment or part of the installation. The former can be class II, the latter needs an earth.

So use of plug in ceiling roses, and loose panels in a suspended ceiling which is common, are those panels in service electrical equipment in the same way as a class II table lamp? If so then no need for an earth from plug to lamp.

We seem to see the FCU in the same light as a plug and socket, so we are happy to connect a class II item to them.

So if we had again a suspended ceiling and standard ceiling roses and twin core going to a GU10 lamp in the panel I would again consider the panel/lamp combination as electrical equipment.

However in plaster board it is installed, not simply placed there, so I will let you explain the 1966 rule change and say how you read the regulations.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

The simple answer to flashing, is to rewire every light to 240v to the lampholder and fit 240v LED's. Or to replace all of the 'transformers' with (depending on load) one proper electromagnetic transformer better matched to the actual load. E-transformers only works when they are reasonably well matched to the wattage load, otherwise the flash on and off.

 

[JohnW2]

It states except for suspended lamp holder, so it is quite plain if not suspended i.e. fixed to the ceiling it includes it.

It does say that, but a lampholder is surely an 'accessory' within the installation (which is why that have had to include "except for a suspended lampholder" - an accessory into which one 'plugs' aload (a lamp/bulb) which is not part of the installation, and hence not within the scope of BS7671. I don't see it as being materially different from ('power') sockets - the socket is part of the installation, hence within the scope of BS7671, but whatever one plugs into the socket is usually not part of the installation.

Are you suggesting that any item of equipment which is 'hard-wired' becomes part of the installation, hence within the scope of BS7671 and hence also within the scope of, say, an EICR? That would include countless items of equipment in 'commercial' properties (e.g. often many things one finds in hotel bedrooms), and at least a few in my house.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I seem to remember "current using equipment" with the exception of lighting comes under inspection and testing of in service electrical equipment, but lighting is the odd one out, and is included with the electrical installation condition report.

I would agree there is a grey area, personally not having an earth to a class II device is not a problem. But should some inspector say it does not comply, I could not say he was wrong.

 

[markyd1]

After all these replies the OP still has no idea what to do

 

[JohnW2]

After all these replies the OP still has no idea what to do

He may not have decided what to do, but I think the best (very clear, and relatively 'foolproof') advice he has been give has probably been:

The simple answer to flashing, is to rewire every light to 240v to the lampholder and fit 240v LED's.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I would agree there is a grey area ...

Maybe, but most of it is not very 'grey' in my mind. For example, I'm not sure that anything could persuade me that my alarm and monitoring systems, my router or (when I had it) my TV aerial amplifier were parts of my electrical installation, even though they are 'hard-wired', and nor would I think that (if I had them ) hard-wired boilers, cookers, kitchen/laundry appliances etc. were part of an 'electrical installation'. Would you?

Kind Regards, John