Flat roof fail

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Apologies if this is overly long but it may be of interest to someone and hopefully might elicit some useful advice.


We got a single storey extension built 5 years ago, the flat roof is failing and the builder is now ignoring our communication. The builder in question is a small to mid size company of apparently reputable standing in the Solihull area of over 20 years, we did get personal references from someone locally who had just had similar work done. The work was completed toward the end of 2016 and had building control approval, all seemed fine. The winter at the end of 2017 was quite bad with very low temperatures and snow covering the roof for several weeks. In the following spring we noticed that the rubber roof membrane started to lift and bubble all along one edge and parts of the roof now felt soft and unsafe to walk on.


Over the next 12-18 months we contacted the builder repeatedly, during this time he sent out 3 separate roofers to assess the situation who agreed there was a problem but were reluctant to state what they thought the problem was. The rubber continued to separate from the deck and the roof became more unstable. He eventually made the ludicrous claim that in his expert opinion the roof was failing due to being excessively walked on! We threatened legal action and he agreed to fix the problem but not after first trying to get us to pay half the cost which we of course refused. In October of 2020 he finally appeared. They removed the rubber covering and the plywood deck underneath had all delaminated and had clear black mold patches on the underside. He now made the claim that the plywood must have been a bad batch and had failed and his solution was to replace it all with superior OSB board and to cover that with good quality felt rather than the rubber which he also intimated was causal in the roof failing. After 2 years we were just pleased that he had apparently accepted responsibility and was prepared to rectify the problems. We should not have been so accommodating.


We have prior emails from him stating categorically that the type of roof that they had constructed was a warm roof with the insulation placed above the deck. When they removed the plywood it was plainly clear that what they had actually built was a cold roof with the insulation placed within the supporting roof beams below and none above. I didn’t have knowledge of the different roof types then but I do now. As I understand it, with a cold roof it’s essential as per building regulations that adequate ventilation is provided to allow rising warm air to escape, without it condensation will form as it meets the cold top deck. There was no ventilation provided at all even though it was stipulated in their original quotation document. He tried to provide some nonsense explanation as to why it wasn’t necessary in this case. Also I learned that there is no vapour barrier above the plasterboard ceiling which I believe should be there.


So, they did rip off the existing rubber and ply deck and replaced it with OSB and felt. A couple months later in December heavy rains came again and leaks started to appear in several places in the rooms below. He dispatched his roofer again to deal with it. He had to come 2 more times over the winter period to deal with leaks. In September of this year we discovered a large mold patch on one of the walls, it was obscured by furniture so we didn’t immediately notice it. I removed the plasterboard and the block work behind was soaking wet. Throwing a bucket of water across the roof above where there was a drain outlet showed a trickle of water streaming down the internal wall below. There was a noticeable gap where the roofing felt met the drain outlet, I repaired this myself which seemed to fix that issue. Now just recently more heavy rains have come and again leaks in another area have appeared prompting yet another visit from his roofer. His roofer seems genuinely helpful but doesn’t feel responsible as he had nothing to do with the initial construction and realises there is a fundamental condensation problem caused by lack of ventilation. The upshot being they made a temporary fix of the symptom of a failing roof deck which caused further problems with water leaks and will itself certainly fail again due to the ventilation issue. After a couple of texts the builder is now ignoring our communication. Our patience has finally run out and now looks like it’ll have to be legal action. Not totally sure of the process now so any advice would be greatly appreciated. Is it worth contacting building control as I can’t understand how they passed off a roof requiring ventilation that clearly had none.
 
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It does not sound clear cut .
Not being a warm roof it should have been vented.
There has obviously been a condensation issue .
Black mould behind furniture is more likely life style .
 
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if you decide to take the contractor to small claims court,the judge will basically ask that both parties agree on a independent surveyor to check what’s been done to what standard and what the original quotation was agreed too.
Rough costs of this are about £150 per hr plus vat both parties will be told to pay 50% of the bill each.
Then whoever loses the case will have to pay the other parties costs plus what the judge decides the value of the claim is.
When you send the official letter to the builder with your intention to take him to court he will have x amount of days to reply plus if he feels he has a counter claim against you he will reply with his counter claim.
 
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If it's black mould then doubtful
Sorry, not sure I understand, if the blockwork behind the plasterboard is soaking wet and you can see the water trickling down it, and the majority of the rear facing side of the plasterboard is covered in black mould, are you saying there could be another cause of the mould other than the leak?
 
Hi,

I'm sorry you've had these issues. I'm afraid I can't add any advice, but I know i could have been in exactly the same situation.

I recently had a re-roof of my bathroom, with a single-ply membrane cold roof; built by a very reputable builder/roofer and with full building control inspection.

I kept an eye on the build progress; when the insulation was being installed, I noticed that the PIR didn't reach into the eaves.
I thought they would finish it later.
Foil backed plasterboard was put up and the builders left.
BC came for a final inspection and I pointed out that we could see daylight between the plasterboard and eaves!

Later the builder came to fix the issue. His solution, agreed by BC over the phone, was to fill the gap wih spray foam.
I wasn't happy with this, but it got the builders out, and BC was happy.

Later, I took the whole ceiling down and started again!
100mm PIR filled the entire depth of 100mm rafters. There were no ventilation gaps.
There were massive holes at the eaves with no insulation.
There was missing insulation elsewhere, as well as large gaps in the vapour barrier; their plasterboards didn't line up!

It showed me that builders, especially when not directly supervised by the boss, know they should be doing something, but don't always understand the reasons why they are doing it!
...and BC can be a box ticking exercise :)
 
I believe you said the mould was hidden behind furniture.. Now you can see the water running down the wall?

Generally black mould behind furniture is due to lack of air flow, poor life style practices , drying washing on rads , extract fans not working, close up windows etc etc
This is the time of year when people start to notice it
 
I believe you said the mould was hidden behind furniture.. Now you can see the water running down the wall?

From my original post which you must have missed:- "In September of this year we discovered a large mold patch on one of the walls, it was obscured by furniture so we didn’t immediately notice it. I removed the plasterboard and the block work behind was soaking wet. Throwing a bucket of water across the roof above where there was a drain outlet showed a trickle of water streaming down the internal wall below."
 
@RandomGrinch I think you're right, I suspect a lot of the BC inspectors see the same builders repeatedly and get to know them and after a while they just assume they've done things correctly and pass it off. If I'm being generous the main guy genuinely seemed to think they had installed a warm roof because he was telling me that he'd show me the insulation layer above the deck when they ripped the rubber off, he was a bit shame faced when he discovered there was none, didn't even get an apology though.
 
@dilly Thanks that's helpful, the letter will probably be going out this week, I'll give an update if anything interesting happens.
 
Might be better off cutting your losses, and getting it redone.

Have you located exactly where the water is coming from?

Did you not specify to add vents when they replaced the roof the 2nd time?
 
Might be better off cutting your losses, and getting it redone.
The underlying problem is that they constructed a roof not fit for purpose and contravening building regulations. Paying another builder potentially thousands to correct the problem just doesn't sit well with me.

Have you located exactly where the water is coming from?
No, neither has the roofer which has come out 4 times.

Did you not specify to add vents when they replaced the roof the 2nd time?
I didn't realise at the time that it was my job to inform the builder how to do his, so unfortunately not.
 
The underlying problem is that they constructed a roof not fit for purpose and contravening building regulations. Paying another builder potentially thousands to correct the problem just doesn't sit well with me.


No, neither has the roofer which has come out 4 times.


I didn't realise at the time that it was my job to inform the builder how to do his, so unfortunately not.

Your right it shouldn't be your job to insist it's installed properly.

The builder should have just done it, or converted it to a warm roof as soon as he realised it wasn't built to spec.

I'm on your side, but I'd have thought as you already had an issue you would have been on the builders case to get it right. I'm not blaming you at all though.

How long is it going to take to get through court and what are the chances he's not going to pull a flanker and shut his business down and then re-open as something else. In the mean time your roof is leaking more and causing further damage to the property while your waiting.

Personally I'd get the roof fixed and the house in a healthy condition, also I'd advise to get an independent report written and then go after the previous builder for the costs to put right.

Do you have a parapet with the flat roof inside the parapet wall?
 
When they removed the plywood it was plainly clear that what they had actually built was a cold roof with the insulation placed within the supporting roof beams below and none above. I didn’t have knowledge of the different roof types then but I do now. As I understand it, with a cold roof it’s essential as per building regulations that adequate ventilation is provided to allow rising warm air to escape, without it condensation will form as it meets the cold top deck. There was no ventilation provided at all even though it was stipulated in their original quotation document. He tried to provide some nonsense explanation as to why it wasn’t necessary in this case. Also I learned that there is no vapour barrier above the plasterboard ceiling which I believe should be there

it’s not actually clear what the roof construction is.

it sounds like it may be a “hybrid roof” - where the insulation is in between the rafters but directly below the roof deck.

Are there firrings between the roof joists and the deck? - and does this leave a void between insulation and deck?

if you have downlighters do they penetrate the insulation?


You might want to look at Steve roofer
 
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