flue / flat roof problem

[nick60]

1canhelp, thank you. I've discussed raising the boiler with my neighbour - it may be an option.

When you say non-condensing flues should fall away from the boiler, what about ones that were designed with a vertical flue option? I assume the same requirement about avoiding water on the heat exchanger is still there, so this must be addressed via the design of the vertical flue I presume. In principle then, why can't I do something equivalent? It's a moot point as parts are apparently unavailable, but I'm just trying to understand the background to these various regs.

Also, by way of background, what do you think lies behind the regulation about the 300mm clearance over a flat roof - is there a concern about the hot flue gases damaging the roof, or is there some other issue?

 

[transam]

Flues discharging over boundarys is mentioned in the gas safety & use regs 1998 , & probably go back even further 1984 (may be?) , legaly you have every right to build up to your boundary , irrespective of any flue , the flue should have been installed with due regard to any future development !! obviously if it was an open flue of some type than a duty of care would mean that you cannot cause a dangerous situation , but the end result would be the same ,the neighbour would have to move it !!

 

[1CANHELP]

1canhelp, thank you. I've discussed raising the boiler with my neighbour - it may be an option.

When you say non-condensing flues should fall away from the boiler, what about ones that were designed with a vertical flue option? I assume the same requirement about avoiding water on the heat exchanger is still there, so this must be addressed via the design of the vertical flue I presume. In principle then, why can't I do something equivalent? It's a moot point as parts are apparently unavailable, but I'm just trying to understand the background to these various regs.

Also, by way of background, what do you think lies behind the regulation about the 300mm clearance over a flat roof - is there a concern about the hot flue gases damaging the roof, or is there some other issue?

Non condensing fan flued models can and do come off the top however, that is just one bend directly off the top.

Other non condensing models that come of the top are open flued or conventional flued models and they will have a terminal to stop water ingress and if the flue system is fitted correctly then no condensation should form in the flue.

The 300mm is to prevent heat damage and also allow proper dispersal/dillution of flue gas so the air intake only draws in clean air.

 

[1CANHELP]

Flues discharging over boundarys is mentioned in the gas safety & use regs 1998 , & probably go back even further 1984 (may be?) , legaly you have every right to build up to your boundary , irrespective of any flue , the flue should have been installed with due regard to any future development !! obviously if it was an open flue of some type than a duty of care would mean that you cannot cause a dangerous situation , but the end result would be the same ,the neighbour would have to move it !!

I'd like to see how far that would go in court and at what cost only for an outcome, that the person requesting the flue to be moved would get.

I live and have lived in the real world for many a year and have seen this problem umpteen times.

the usual outcome is that the courts tell the two parties to sort it out themselves as the problem should've been forseen when the job was being specced and the cost of remedial works accounted for.

A court cannot punish either, for wanting to build up to a boundary or for someone buying a house that has been signed off with a flue over a boundary.

Just giving my 20+ years experience in running a mechanical and electrical business.

I'm sure your wee books tell you different.

 

[Andygasman2010]

Boundry regs have been in for years, not just since steamers came about.

 

[transam]

Flues
I'd like to see how far that would go in court and at what cost only for an outcome, that the person requesting the flue to be moved would get.

I live and have lived in the real world for many a year and have seen this problem umpteen times.

the usual outcome is that the courts tell the two parties to sort it out themselves as the problem should've been forseen when the job was being specced and the cost of remedial works accounted for.

A court cannot punish either, for wanting to build up to a boundary or for someone buying a house that has been signed off with a flue over a boundary.

Just giving my 20+ years experience in running a mechanical and electrical business.

I'm sure your wee books tell you different.

The wee book you refer to is the gas safety & use regulations 1998 , which is a regulation & it is therfore a legal document , & any gas appliance should be installed with due regard to these regulations , if a flue is encroaching over a boundary & that person wishes to legally build up to that boundary he is entitled to do so , he would also not have to meet any costs or expenses that are incurred by the neighbour , just giving you my 20 years plus running a plumbing & heating company

 

[1CANHELP]

Boundry regs have been in for years, not just since steamers came about.

I have not said they haven't, what I said if you read and interpret the english language correctly is.....that knowbody bothered with it i.e took much notice until the steamers as you put it came into play.

You try taking someone to court to move a flue for a boiler thats been in over say 7+ years so you can build up to the boundary, the only outcome will be.....you will be skint and stressed and you're neighbour will be sitting laughing.

Unless it presented a danger before the proposed works were started!

The court will not penalise a householder who moved into or had the boiler instsalled many years ago in good faith that it was done to the standards and with due regard, that you or anyother person living in that house wanted to build up to the boundary sometime in the future.

Honestly man how nieve are you, has the ink set on your gas certs yet?

You give me an instance of when someone has been made to move a perfectly safe install because someone later wants to build up to the boundary and I'll give 5 off what i explained is the normal outcome.

I.e sort it between yourselfs.

 

[Andygasman2010]

When this boiler was fitted there were no specific guidelines in place with regards to flues exiting over boundaries, this only came about around 2005 when condensing boilers and pluming problems became apparent

errrr..... excuse me???

Oh, and it's "nobody" not "knowbody" I can speak english fine thanks. Now go learn YOUR english and don't be so up your own a***

 

[1CANHELP]

When this boiler was fitted there were no specific guidelines in place with regards to flues exiting over boundaries, this only came about around 2005 when condensing boilers and pluming problems became apparent

errrr..... excuse me???

I can speak english fine thanks.

Fair play mr gas man, I did indeed give the impression that no regs existed as opposed to not be being taking in mind....apollogies! I am man enough to admit a mistake. I was also making reference to BUILDING REGS not gas safety regs.

BUILDING REGS took more interest after the steamers came along.

However, you must see where I am coming from with regard to a legal nightmare which, would ensue.

The outcome in my experience has always been, sort it out between yourselfs!

 

[Andygasman2010]

So In th OP's case his neighbours boiler was installed NCS due to the boundry overhang. So he does have a case there. Doesn't look like it'll come to that in this particular case thankfully for him.

 

[transam]

You give me an instance of when someone has been made to move a perfectly safe install because someone later wants to build up to the boundary and I'll give 5 off what i explained is the normal outcome.

I.e sort it between yourselfs.[/quote]


Well it just so happens I can , a vetinary surgery had to move a flue connected to a Mini C which was installed in 2004 ( non condenser) that encroached onto the neighbouring boundary , a development took place in 2008/9 the vets were told (not asked) to move the flue , which meant resiting the boiler , the vets took legal advice , it made no difference they did not have a leg to stand on !

If I am legally entitled to build an extension on my property I do not need to ask the neighbour about there flue ,( apart from courtesy ect ) I can build it , neither do I have to meet there expense's or costs with reference to moving it

Than of course there are maintenance issues on flues thaat encroach on some one elses property , that should be considered , the boiler owner or persona acting on his behalf have no right of way on someone else's property , will the O.P except that some one may have to clamber onto his flat roof , in years to come the felt will probably blister , roof leaks who is responsible ??

 

[nick60]

interesting, thanks everyone. Good to get a legal perspective on things, even though I am pretty sure we won't need to go that route. Just for info, my particular road is about 7 or 8 houses that the estate agents describe as 'link detached'. I'm sure you know the form .... main body of houses are genuinely detached, but the garages sit between the houses and are attached both sides. My new flat roof extends the garage to the rear. The point is we've had the issue of access over flat roofs for maintenance ever since the houses were built.

Also, (stop me if I'm boring you), the property boundaries are quite confusing - it's impossible to draw a straight line that forms an obvious boundary between 'mine' and 'theirs' because the garages overlap the position where you'd probably draw that line. In other words, if my neighbour looks straight down his left flank wall, overlapping that line by about 40cm is the right hand wall of my garage. I've no idea how you would go about solving boundary issues around here, but I'm sure there are plenty of solicitors that would be happy to assist .....

 

[mysteryman]

Back to the real world ...

The other reason for the 300mm vertical clearance above the ground/a flat roof/a balcony is so that snow or rain can't get in.

I wish the OP every luck with this - and please, everybody else - CALM!

 

[transam]

Good advice there mysteryman , in particular the Calm bit we can all disagree but can we do it in a calm way ??


Tomorrow will be the 1st day of the rest of you life !

 

[1CANHELP]

interesting, thanks everyone. Good to get a legal perspective on things, even though I am pretty sure we won't need to go that route. Just for info, my particular road is about 7 or 8 houses that the estate agents describe as 'link detached'. I'm sure you know the form .... main body of houses are genuinely detached, but the garages sit between the houses and are attached both sides. My new flat roof extends the garage to the rear. The point is we've had the issue of access over flat roofs for maintenance ever since the houses were built.

Also, (stop me if I'm boring you), the property boundaries are quite confusing - it's impossible to draw a straight line that forms an obvious boundary between 'mine' and 'theirs' because the garages overlap the position where you'd probably draw that line. In other words, if my neighbour looks straight down his left flank wall, overlapping that line by about 40cm is the right hand wall of my garage. I've no idea how you would go about solving boundary issues around here, but I'm sure there are plenty of solicitors that would be happy to assist .....

I was beginning to wonder when I looked at the picture more closely and was going to ask if it was link detached.

Therefore, you probably have no scope to raise it due to ceiling heights inside the property.

A compromise between you and the neighbour, re-site boiler and half the cost of doing so as it can't be solved anyother way, this will be cheaper for you.

From what I remember link detached do not have defined boundaries within the dimensions of the main house bit like terraces and would normally be call the party wall where this stands with the building regs well...I don't know.

Your garden however, will have a defined boundary.

By the way, I got a flue for one of those around 10 months ago through parts center, had to ring the manufacturer though as the number in the manual has change. The GC No- for the boiler is 41-429-33. sorry manual does not do a GC No- or product No for the flue.

Also, they did a vertex flue for this model, I have never seen it and would never have believed it unless I read it in the manual, that could solve the problem of re-siting if you could get the flue system, found that out today after I rooted out the old manual.