Ford Ka breaks

[blightymam]

Hello!

Just bought a little run around from a mate, a 54 plate ford ka, only 40k on the clock. It replaced my very much loved beemer 3 series, 21 years old and 130k on the clock! Just got too expensive to run on fuel and road tax tho.

Anyway, needed a bit of work, plus new break pads, discs, fluid and adjustment as the break was very low and spongy. I took it to London to visit the in-laws last week and half way there the break failed, it was completely 'empty' as I pressed down, no break at all. I did try to break reasonably hard as had someone pull out in front, and of course, pads still bedding in. I had to pump the break in order to get it to work, pretty scary stuff.

Since then, breaks have been fine but will need to take it back to the garage that did the work. Any idea's what could be wrong? I am always wary of garages being female and like to have some sort of idea before I go in as I have been conned before.

Huge thanks for any thoughts

 

[ajstoneservices]

Sounds as though they hadn't bled the brake system properly.

 

[Burnerman]

If you say there was no brake pedal pressure at all during this scary episode, then it refers to a master cylinder fault.....if the brake recovers but needs pumping of the pedal to get reasonable pressure then its usually a fault with the rear brakes, curiously enough.
Try this test.....engine off, pump the pedal a few times and it should rise to the top of its travel and be very firm. Keep the pressure on and start up - the pedal should sink to its normal position.
Next, apply pedal pressure, engine off or on.....does the pedal slowly sink to the floor?
John

 

[Diver Fred]

I think you mean 'a problem with the car's brakes'(which is what slows it down); not the "Ka's breaks" (which is when it goes 'bang').
Certainly looks to be a problem and also sounds like the garage is trying to pull a fast one...
I think you said the magic words "Fluid Change". What I think has occurred is that the garage 'Blew' (blown out) the fluid with compressed air - there is a tool to do that with but if it is done with out care it can shift the seals in the brake master cylinder which is comeasurate with the symptoms you describe.
Do you or did you get a warning lamp on the instruments when you applied the brakes? that would be indicative that the system was only working to about 50%.
Bedding-in of disks does not cause the brakes to be spongy or have lots of travel.
I think you need to talk with the garage and find out what they did and have firm words with them if my conclusions are correct to get to put it right FOC (or at the very worst - a much reduced cost).

 

[blightymam]

If you say there was no brake pedal pressure at all during this scary episode, then it refers to a master cylinder fault.....if the brake recovers but needs pumping of the pedal to get reasonable pressure then its usually a fault with the rear brakes, curiously enough.
Try this test.....engine off, pump the pedal a few times and it should rise to the top of its travel and be very firm. Keep the pressure on and start up - the pedal should sink to its normal position.
Next, apply pedal pressure, engine off or on.....does the pedal slowly sink to the floor?
John

I tried what you said, and everything as you described happened. It's really odd, brakes have been working just fine since. When it failed, there was a couple more times where they were very spongy, but after pumping them they were ok. Maybe I braked harder than I meant to or remember doing, and because the car doesn't have ABS, perhaps something is happening to one of the pressure release valves. The car did steer slightly as I broke.

Thanks for your help I really appreciate it! Car now booked into the garage tomorrow, hopefully they can find out what's happened.

 

[blightymam]

I think you mean 'a problem with the car's brakes'(which is what slows it down); not the "Ka's breaks" (which is when it goes 'bang').
Certainly looks to be a problem and also sounds like the garage is trying to pull a fast one...
I think you said the magic words "Fluid Change". What I think has occurred is that the garage 'Blew' (blown out) the fluid with compressed air - there is a tool to do that with but if it is done with out care it can shift the seals in the brake master cylinder which is comeasurate with the symptoms you describe.
Do you or did you get a warning lamp on the instruments when you applied the brakes? that would be indicative that the system was only working to about 50%.
Bedding-in of disks does not cause the brakes to be spongy or have lots of travel.
I think you need to talk with the garage and find out what they did and have firm words with them if my conclusions are correct to get to put it right FOC (or at the very worst - a much reduced cost).

Yeah, sorry, not thinking when posting that. Am normally really good at trying to spell correctly/use correct word too, but obviously I failed By the way, commensurate has two 'm's!! Cheeky grins.

Thanks very much about the compressed air and fluid, very interesting indeed.. I most certainly will mention it, especially if they don't find anything. Sadly, I can't remember if I saw a warning light when it happened (nothing since) as was too busy pooping my pants..!

 

[Burnerman]

If you can just think back to the initial event.....if the brake pedal went straight down to the floor with no resistance then it is a master cylinder issue. Even some air in the system would give some sort of a pedal, and for sure the air won't bleed out itself in a short time......although its an old trick to allow it to bleed out of the master cylinder itself if you know what you are doing. No matter.....
If the car seemed to pull to one side slightly this can point to either the discs and pads not being bedded in (takes only a few miles to sort that) or there's still some air in one of the brake calipers, and this would still be present now.
I doubt if the garage will find any fault really.....it may never happen again. It is certainly possible for the master cylinder to behave in this way as the fluid within can just internally circulate rather than the pressure manifest down the brake pipes, if you can follow that.
The garage would normally change the fluid by sucking it out of the caliper nipple, and replenishing it from the top, but I doubt if they will reveal what they actually did!
Do lets know what they say......if it was mine, and the pedal did shoot down to the floor, I'd fit a new master cylinder pronto.
John

 

[Burnerman]

Just as a P.S., did the garage do anything to the rear brakes at all?
J.

 

[blightymam]

Cheers John, appreciated
There was a tiny bit of brake, right to the floor if I remember rightly, so may not be the master cylinder. I am thinking to be cautious tho with this because the brakes were so so spongy when I bought the car which means air's getting in there I think? I did presume a new MC would've been something I'd have to do anyway at the time of buying the car. However, things did improve in that sense when the discs and pads were replaced, at least so I thought!

And no, nothing on the rear brakes was done, at least nothing I asked or paid for The only other thing was handbrake adjustment. £30 - ouch!!

 

[Burnerman]

Ok, and thanks for the update!
The need to pump the brake pedal to get results usually indicates that the self adjusting mechanism on the rear brakes isn't working, believe it or not......this doesn't happen on the front as the pads are always in slight contact with the discs anyway. A spongy pedal is an indicator of some air in the system or unbedded discs / pads as I've said before, but that sorts itself very quickly.
Let's see what the garage says, but the Ka is simple and cheap to work on anyway.....just watch for rust around the fuel filler cap!
£30 to adjust the handbrake I do that for nowt, so long as the rear adjusters are ok!
John

 

[blightymam]

£30 plus vat!!

Wishing I lived in Northumberland now


Edited to add, sorry, get confused with all this stuff, it was the brake calipers I thought I may have to get done at time of purchase, not master cylinder. Caliper, cylinder... all 'c's!!

 

[blightymam]

.
I doubt if the garage will find any fault really.....it may never happen again. It is certainly possible for the master cylinder to behave in this way as the fluid within can just internally circulate rather than the pressure manifest down the brake pipes, if you can follow that.

Just back from garage and you were absolutely right, couldn't find any fault with it at all. Did mention that it may be the master cylinder in the future, but they checked it and could see no fault as the mo. Hey ho, doesn't fill me with confidence, just pleased that I rarely need to drive it fast!!

On the plus side, no charge and they fitted my headlight, which saved me - or should I say - the other half a job! Not simple to change a ford Ka bulb, stupid designers

Thanks to you and the others for help, appreciated loads.

 

[HERTS P&D]

The trouble is that your problem brakes have NOT being fixed. This needs to be sorted.

Andy

 

[blightymam]

Thanks Andy, I feel the same but unsure as what to do next. Another garage to look at it I guess.

I am hoping that things will improve as they've bled the brakes again. Didn't say they did but the brake response is 'higher up' when pressing the brakes and certainly seem less spongy. Perhaps I was unlucky with air after the fluid was done last week. Ho hum!

 

[Burnerman]

I'll just stick me neck out again.....
The master cylinder is (happily) one of the most reliable components on the vehicle - it has to be. Failure isn't common, and certainly not at a low mileage. Leaks are however but these are rarely seen as the thing sticks into the brake servo, but the odd puff of white smoke sometimes gives the game away!
Brake circuits are split into 'diagonals' so that complete brake failure is almost impossible (some vehicles now use a 4 channel system - one channel for each wheel.)
Its not necessary to introduce any air at all into the system when changing the fluid, but there will be some ingress if the calipers have been changed.
So - I think you have had an air ingress issue.....if the pedal pressure is better now after another bleed then that would indicate this (take a bow, ajstoneservices ) and I'd carefully monitor the situation - and definitely report if there was any pulling to one side during braking, or a scraping noise from the back end. The same applies if you find yourself having to pump the pedal. Naturally enough the fluid level should be looked at - the level shouldn't change for many miles now.
Be lucky
John