Four cables in one socket?

[SJRSJR]

Hello. I'm dismantling a built in cupboard to which two surface mounted sockets are attached. One of the sockets has four cables into it, one of which runs to the other socket, which has two cables in total.

Of the four cables in the first socket, one is a thicker 'stranded' wire, the other are single copper wires. I'm wondering how they managed to ram so many cables in, and whether, once I've taken them out, I'll ever get them.

Does that sound safe or should I call in an electrician? Thanks.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Hello. I'm dismantling a built in cupboard to which two surface mounted sockets are attached. One of the sockets has four cables into it, one of which runs to the other socket,

Where do the other 3 go?

which has two cables in total.

Where does the other one go?

Of the four cables in the first socket, one is a thicker 'stranded' wire,

Is that 4mm² twin and earth, or old imperial cable? What colour are the conductors, and is the earth also stranded?

the other are single copper wires.

Do you know what size?

I'm wondering how they managed to ram so many cables in, and whether, once I've taken them out, I'll ever get them.

You might struggle, but the chances are you should not try, as it sounds likely that you've got too many sockets on unfused spurs there, so you may not re-instate it.

Is the circuit a ring or a radial?

What is the fuse/MCB rating for it?

What size cable is used from the MCB/fuse?

Does that sound safe or should I call in an electrician?

Not entirely and yes, if you aren't justifiably confident to find out what the arrangement of all those cables and sockets is.

 

[SJRSJR]

Hello. I'm dismantling a built in cupboard to which two surface mounted sockets are attached. One of the sockets has four cables into it, one of which runs to the other socket,

Where do the other 3 go?
through the wall to the kitchen. Two go to spur sockets.

which has two cables in total.

Where does the other one go?
It's a spur, to another socket in the room.

Of the four cables in the first socket, one is a thicker 'stranded' wire,

Is that 4mm² twin and earth, or old imperial cable? What colour are the conductors, and is the earth also stranded?
I don't think it's that big, they're all similar size casing. It had three stands, (silver not copper coloured), it's a grey cable, with red, black and green/yellow sleeving. Of the other three, the second white cable with red, black and green/yellow sleeving goes to the socket next to it, the third white cable with red,black and green yellow goes to a socket on the other side of the wall, and the fourth white cable with brown, blue and green/yellow sleeving also goes to another socket on the other side of the wall.

the other are single copper wires.

Do you know what size?
I'd say 1.5mm

I'm wondering how they managed to ram so many cables in, and whether, once I've taken them out, I'll ever get them.

You might struggle, but the chances are you should not try, as it sounds likely that you've got too many sockets on unfused spurs there, so you may not re-instate it.

Is the circuit a ring or a radial?

What is the fuse/MCB rating for it?

What size cable is used from the MCB/fuse?
I can't be sure of the rest as we've only recently moved in. The meter cupboard has four separate fuse boards and switches, none of which are marked up. They are old style pull out fuses. The only modern one with circuit breakers is in the bedroom (newest part of the house).

Does that sound safe or should I call in an electrician?

Not entirely and yes, if you aren't justifiably confident to find out what the arrangement of all those cables and sockets is.
I should probably get an electrician in just to make sense of it, although I am interested to know your opinion on this particular arrangement. Thanks.

 

[Robin0577]

Hard to be sure of anything without seeing it, but it's starting to sound as if your wiring may have suffered many years of bodges on top of bodges. It would probably be worth having an inspection carried out and a condition report produced, just in case there are any other nasty surprises lurking...

 

[JohnW2]

which has two cables in total.

Where does the other one go? It's a spur, to another socket in the room.

Are you sure that it is a spur - how many cables does this 'another socket in the room' have [i.e. does it have just that one cable, or are there any other(s)]?

Kind Regards, John

 

[SJRSJR]

Actually John, you're right, that particular one is not a spur. It has two cables in (red, black and green/yellow).
The other two are definitely spurs (just the one cable in).

 

[JohnW2]

Actually John, you're right, that particular one is not a spur. It has two cables in (red, black and green/yellow). The other two are definitely spurs (just the one cable in).

That's what I half suspected, and means that it's possible that the arrangement you have is almost 'standard' .... it could be the both the sockets you initially mentioned, plus the other socket connected to the second of them, are all parts of the ring, and that there are two spurs (each just one socket) connected to the first of those sockets. If that were the case (and I'm obviously purely speculating/guessing), the only 'unusual' thing would be the two spurs (hence four cables) from the first of those sockets. Whilst not really the best of design practices (and physically difficult to terminate four cables satisfactorily in in one socket), it's not explicitly prohibited by the regulations. However, without fully tracing the entire circuit, this is obviously all pure speculation/guesswork.

Kind Regards, John

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

... two spurs (hence four cables) from the first of those sockets. Whilst not really the best of design practices (and physically difficult to terminate four cables satisfactorily in in one socket), it's not explicitly prohibited by the regulations.

John, I don't believe that is correct.

 

[JohnW2]

... two spurs (hence four cables) from the first of those sockets. Whilst not really the best of design practices (and physically difficult to terminate four cables satisfactorily in in one socket), it's not explicitly prohibited by the regulations.

John, I don't believe that is correct.

Which bit don't you believe is not correct - the fact that it's not explicitly prohibited by the regs? If so, which bit of the regs do you think explicitly prohibits it?

There is a common belief that it is not permissible to have two spurs originating at the same point in a ring, but I don't think you'll be able to find anything in BS7671 which says that. Those who believe that usually think it's because of the risk of high 'point loading' on the ring, but that really doesn't make much sense - since even they would agree that separate spurs from two sockets 6 inches apart on the ring would be compliant.

It is quite possible that what we're talking about is technically non-compliant - but because it may well involve exceeding the cable accommodating capacity of the socket terminals specified in the manufacturer's instructions. However, that's a somewhat different issue and does not mean that (if sockets with appropriate treminals could be found) having two spurs originating from the same socket would, in itself, be non-compliant.

Kind Regards, John

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

Oh fair enough John. I hadn't registered that they removed that one. It was ambiguous anyway. But it said something like the number of spurs should not exceed the number of sockets/connection units on the main ring. But as you say I can't find that reg anymore. And the example in the appendix would break that rule anyway.

 

[JohnW2]

Oh fair enough John. I hadn't registered that they removed that one. It was ambiguous anyway. But it said something like the number of spurs should not exceed the number of sockets/connection units on the main ring. But as you say I can't find that reg anymore.

I may be wrong, but I'm not aware that anything like that was ever in 'the regs' (BS7671), but it has been (and still is) in the OSG (which, of course, is only a guideline). In any event, even if that were a rule, there's no reason to think that the OP's situation would violate it. We are only aware of two true spurs (albeit from the same point of origin) - but, with the possible arrangement I was speculating about, we would have at least 3 sockets (very probably far more) 'on the main ring'. Since 2 is less than 3, that would therefore satisfy that guideline.

And the example in the appendix would break that rule anyway.

To be fair, I don't think that Appendix 15 (which, anyway, is only 'informative', and not 'a regulation') is meant to be showing 'an example' of a real-world ring final. It's simply a diagram which shows all possible types of connections to such a circuit!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Actually John, you're right, that particular one is not a spur. It has two cables in (red, black and green/yellow). The other two are definitely spurs (just the one cable in).

That's what I half suspected, and means that it's possible that the arrangement you have is almost 'standard' .... it could be the both the sockets you initially mentioned, plus the other socket connected to the second of them, are all parts of the ring, and that there are two spurs (each just one socket) connected to the first of those sockets.

Could be, or it could be that this socket with 2 cables is a spur supplying another socket.

Proper testing is needed, really.

 

[JohnW2]

That's what I half suspected, and means that it's possible that the arrangement you have is almost 'standard' .... it could be the both the sockets you initially mentioned, plus the other socket connected to the second of them, are all parts of the ring, and that there are two spurs (each just one socket) connected to the first of those sockets.

Could be, or it could be that this socket with 2 cables is a spur supplying another socket. Proper testing is needed, really.

Yep, there are all sorts of possibilities - as I said, with what we know, all we can do is speculate/guess, and nothing will be certain until the whole circuit has been traced.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SJRSJR]

Okay, I think I've got to the bottom of it. I've removed the two spurs and the cable connecting the two sockets, discarded one socket and I've connected the ring into the other. That's probably how it was originally.

So was it against regs? Can't see why he put four cables into one socket and two into another. Wouldn't a spur into each socket and the connecting cable have been easier, i.e. three in each? I'd like both spurs back if permitted, if not, at least one. Thanks.

 

[SJRSJR]

Okay, I think I've got to the bottom of it. I've removed the two spurs and the cable connecting the two sockets, discarded one socket and I've connected the ring into the other. That's probably how it was originally.

So was it against regs? Can't see why he put four cables into one socket and two into another. Wouldn't a spur into each socket and the connecting cable have been easier, i.e. three in each? I'd like both spurs back if permitted, if not, at least one. Thanks.