four cables in one double-socket

[newdiy]

Good evening to all,

this afternoon, I have found a double socket that have four cables (4 L, 4 N and 4E) when I was trying to allocate a convenient socket to extend a circuit ring in order to add three double sockets. Could that mean there are two spurs from one socket?

I am very puzzled about it. Not sure if i can use this socket to extend the ring main, if not, what is the alternative way to add new sockets. Many thanks in advances for your help.

 

[Extrasolar]

Good evening to all,

Could that mean there are two spurs from one socket?

Either that or somebody has already tried to extend the ring circuit and just added two more cables to that socket. Either way, it isn't recommended.

 

[Big_Spark]

That should require further investigation, however I would not advocate you doing this yourself.

It could be, as Extrasolar said, that someone has extended the ring, but run the extension in wrong, but as you suspect it could be you already have two or more items spured off that particular socket.

My advice would be to call in a spark to tell you which it is. Don't tell him you want to add a spur, just ask him to ascertain which possibility is true, if it is a botched ring extension, ask him to correct it whilst there..should only take a few minutes to do. That will then leave you to do your spur when he has left the building

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I don't make a habit of automatically debating everything that FWL says, but I don't think it is necessarily beyond your ability to find out where these cables go and determine for yourself what they are doing.

Although the fact that you posted the question here without doing that, and without thinking about the fact that a description of "4 cables in 1 socket" is not enough to determine what's going on, does lend a lot of weight to his decision that you should get an electrician in.

 

[newdiy]

I am grateful for all your suggestions and advice. Just want to add a bit more details I have gathered so far.

The town house was built early 1970, so the cable does have grey puc with twisted wire as mentioned elsewhere in the forum.

After visual inspection (with fuse off in CU), I can see that the double socket concerned (in the ground floor) and it has white PUC as well as grey PUC cables, so it is believed that a ring extension has been added since orignal ring circuit that includes four single socket.

The ring ciruit supplys one FCU single socket ( in the same floor as the double socket), three double sockets above kitchen work top, electric oven and washing machine, besides it also supplies four single sockets on the 2nd floor.

Without a continuity tester, I have not been able to work out what each cable from the double socket (4 cable one) is for. I hope I do not need to re-wire the whole ring. Perhaps I have to call upon my local electrician for some help if I can not get any further on my own.

Once again, many thank for helps you all have offered.

 

[securespark]

FWL

JUst to get your "regs thumb" moving again.....

OSG says spurs can be taken from the origin of the circuit, a junction box or accessories on a ring.

In theory, you could have a situation where one spur has been taken from a socket and another one is taken from a junction box, millimetres away, but under the floor.

With this scenario in mind, what is to stop two spurs being connected from the same point (either CU, outlet or JB)??

What's the difference?

Are there any regs prohibiting this?

 

[Big_Spark]

Secure, that is a valid question, and the simple answer is that this possible scenario is not mentioned in the Regs, in fact the regs say very little on the subject of spurs.

However I don't think the question particularly relevent to this thread.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

..Without a continuity tester, I have not been able to work out what each cable from the double socket (4 cable one) is for. I hope I do not need to re-wire the whole ring. Perhaps I have to call upon my local electrician for some help if I can not get any further on my own.

Once again, many thank for helps you all have offered.

Power off, disconnect one of those new white cables, and put chock-block on the ends to make safe. Turm the power on, and see if the ends are live. If they are, then repeat the power-off-remove-white-cable stuff with the other one and check both ends. If still live, then you've got a non-compliant bridged ring which should be sorted.

If at stage 1 the first white cable was dead, then it is a spur, and you can wander around the house with some portable appliance or one of those socket testers and find out which sockets are on it. Ditto with the other white cable.

If you need to disconnect both whites before either one is no longer live, then what you've got is a spur wired with 2 cables, and again you can wander around and find the sockets on it. Probably whoever did it thought he was extending the ring, but he didn't do it correctly. I don't think the regs or the OSG etc recognise a dual-cabled spur, so if it has more than 1 socket on it it is non-compliant. But fret ye not - as long as it's 2.5mm, it is unlikely to be very unsafe. Depending on what is served by that loop, and whereabouts on the ring it is connected, it is possible that it could be generating an imbalance in the loading of the main ring, so it should be fixed. But it is easily fixed - change the socket with 4 cables to 2 sockets with 2 cables (one grey, one white) and you should have a proper ring.

But if you have a 70's property with stranded cables you ought to get it properly checked anyway. The PVC from those days is not as durable as the modern stuff, and if it has never been updated then your main and supplementary bonding may not be up to scratch.

 

[securespark]

FWL

Get off that frequently mounted high horse!

I posed the question when the poster suggested that there could be 2 spurs off his socket, and I was pondering whether or not that was acceptable under the regs.

So it has some relevance.

 

[newdiy]

Thank you ban-all-sheds.

If I did correctly following your instructions, then these are what I have identified:

1) one of the white cable is a spur supplying power to four double sockets above worktop in the kitchen.
2) the other is also a spur, washing machine, dish washer and oven are on this cable.
3) the two grey cables seem to come direct from CU, since when I connect one grey cable at a time, and tested it with a table lamp, the light worked. One of this two cables (could be both of them) supply one double socket, two single socket and one FCU switch for light.

is this a bad news or good news?

 

[Big_Spark]

FWL

Get off that frequently mounted high horse!

I posed the question when the poster suggested that there could be 2 spurs off his socket, and I was pondering whether or not that was acceptable under the regs.

So it has some relevance.

What effing High horse??

I answered your question as best I know..which is about as best as anyone can glean from the Regs, then I simply said that the question was not particularly relevent to the thread, this is because us debating it would not help newdiy solve the problem.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Thank you ban-all-sheds.

If I did correctly following your instructions, then these are what I have identified:

1) one of the white cable is a spur supplying power to four double sockets above worktop in the kitchen.
2) the other is also a spur, washing machine, dish washer and oven are on this cable.
3) the two grey cables seem to come direct from CU, since when I connect one grey cable at a time, and tested it with a table lamp, the light worked. One of this two cables (could be both of them) supply one double socket, two single socket and one FCU switch for light.

is this a bad news or good news?

This is bad news. A spur such as those you have described must only supply ONE socket or ONE fixed appliance. I don't know what you normally use the 4 sockets for - it's quite possible that if you never have much going simultaneously then you will never overload the cable, but the potential to easily do so is there. As for the other one, you are lucky that with the WM, DW & oven on it that you've not had problems.

Do you know what size cable has been used?

As for (3), this is not proof that the grey cables go direct to the CU - if they are ring main cables then disconnecting one of them from the socket would leave all of the sockets on the ring still working and the loose one still live.