Going forward with updating old heating / hot water system in bungalow

[bmouthboyo]

I thought I would start a thread to gather any advice you knowledgeable lot might be able to give regarding my current setup and moving forward.

Situation
- 1970's bungalow
- Me and my wife live here with no kids and both work so used mainly mornings, evenings and weekends
- No kids
- Warm Air Heating (WAH) system (Johnson and Starley JB25-30) installed which has been maintained well and serviced each year from its install in 1992 that we want to keep.
- Hot water via an old immersion heater that has no timer and does not have an adjustable thermostat, simply an on off switch.
- Cold water tank in attic, 50 Gal
- No bath, only electric shower. Would like to replace with power shower and no plan to install a bath.
- No ensuites. Only bathroom taps and kitchen taps supplied with hot water currently
- Not on economy 7 energy plan

Goals
- Would like to install a power shower in near future
- Would like hot/warm water on demand for washing up, and hot in the morning / evening at the bathroom sink and shower.
- Would like to reduce energy costs as much as possible without things becoming prohibitive.

Current thinking
- Replace immersion heater element for one with adjustable thermostat / water temp
- Not sure if I can reuse my hot water cylinder or needs replacing?
- Have a power shower pump twin impeller located in cupboard with WAH and Immersion cylinder (seems attic is not practical for a pump)
- Replace immersion heater switch with a timer that would turn it on in morning and evening for a short time
- Fit an electric heater under kitchen sink to provide hot water on demand

Any advice much appreciated as we are new to home DIY.

Thanks

 

[endecotp]

- Fit an electric heater under kitchen sink to provide hot water on demand

That's unlikely to be the best choice. Does it currently take a long time for the hot water to reach the kitchen taps? How far is it from the cylinder? Do you know the pipe diameter for that run?

You definitely wouldn't want an "instant" heater under the sink; much too slow. A heater with a small tank, e.g. 15l, might make sense - but it has its limitations.

 

[bmouthboyo]

That's unlikely to be the best choice. Does it currently take a long time for the hot water to reach the kitchen taps? How far is it from the cylinder? Do you know the pipe diameter for that run?

You definitely wouldn't want an "instant" heater under the sink; much too slow. A heater with a small tank, e.g. 15l, might make sense - but it has its limitations.

Was actually discussing this with the mrs a minute ago. My thinking was that we could just get hot water as and when needed for the kitchen but on second thoughts if the immersion boiler was more efficient we could heat it for when we get home from work and it would still be hot without much cost by shower time, meaning we could just use the immersion for everything.

One query I have is whether the existing hot water pipes could all be put under pressure from a pump? My thinking being that we could install the pump in the heater cupboard and 'simply' use most of the existing hot water pipe that currently is fed from the immersion?

I have not looked into diameters needed for correct pressure etc. Just wondered if generally they hold up fine when put under pump pressure?

 

[terryplumb]

A pumped shower needs a dedicated feed from the cold tank in the loft ,and a dedicated supply ,via a special flange fitted to the hot water cylinder, which I might add would benefit from additional lagging. New pipework would be ran from the pump to your new thermostatic mixer .the existing electric shower has mains cold supply only ,and would be redundant.so your existing pipework isn't really going to be doing any thing different to what it currently does. You can get " power " showers with integral pump ,but their performance is not as Good .trust this answers your question. As you Indicate you don't use a lot of hot water ,I can see no point in having anything other than the cylinder you have now for dhw. You just need to establish what periods you need the immersion to be on for to satisfy your needs. A basic time switch for immersion heaters will do that.

 

[bmouthboyo]

A pumped shower needs a dedicated feed from the cold tank in the loft ,and a dedicated supply ,via a special flange fitted to the hot water cylinder, which I might add would benefit from additional lagging. New pipework would be ran from the pump to your new thermostatic mixer .the existing electric shower has mains cold supply only ,and would be redundant.so your existing pipework isn't really going to be doing any thing different to what it currently does. You can get " power " showers with integral pump ,but their performance is not as Good .trust this answers your question. As you Indicate you don't use a lot of hot water ,I can see no point in having anything other than the cylinder you have now for dhw. You just need to establish what periods you need the immersion to be on for to satisfy your needs. A basic time switch for immersion heaters will do that.

The bathroom at some point had a bath and I found the capped off hot and cold pipes for this under a board and thought maybe I could use the existing pipes at least from where it enters the bathroom?

During my research I found this image and thought it indicated I could add the pump (with a new dedicated cold water feed from header) and supply all my hot water outlets with pressure and size new piping?

This would be kitchen tap, bathroom tap and a newly fitted power shower?

 

[terryplumb]

Do you really want hot water to a basin from a pump ? It would likely come down into the basin and bounce back up in your face !!! Every time you turn your kitchen hot tap on to rinse a cup you will stop / start a pump !!! But you can you if you want.

 

[bmouthboyo]

Do you really want hot water to a basin from a pump ? It would likely come down into the basin and bounce back up in your face !!! Every time you turn your kitchen hot tap on to rinse a cup you will stop / start a pump !!! But you can you if you want.

I thought this too but when I saw it in the image above I assumed there must be some sort of regulator local to the 2 taps? Just looking if there is going to be a way to achieve all this without having to pull floors up and add pipes etc, but if that is what needs to be done for a good job than will take that route.

 

[terryplumb]

Not much point pumping to increase pressure that you then have to fit a pressure reducing valve to negate ,is there ???? Or is your current pressure to the hot taps very very poor ??you certainly can't extend a plumbing system without adding pipes ,and usually lift a few floorboards as well.

 

[bmouthboyo]

Not much point pumping to increase pressure that you then have to fit a pressure reducing valve to negate ,is there ???? Or is your current pressure to the hot taps very very poor ??you certainly can't extend a plumbing system without adding pipes ,and usually lift a few floorboards as well.

Hot water pressure is fine at the moment, my only thinking was that I could use the existing pipe going from the airing cupboard to the bathroom and not have to rip up the floor for a new dedicated shower pipe.

 

[terryplumb]

Dedicated hot and cold to pump and onward to shower is your best bet.

 

[copea]

Dare I say it, but wouldn't a combi boiler suit your needs perfectly?
OK, the power shower might be out of the question, but you still get a good shower off a combi.

 

[terryplumb]

Dare I say it, but wouldn't a combi boiler suit your needs perfectly?
OK, the power shower might be out of the question, but you still get a good shower off a combi.

Would be a much more expensive way to go ,compared to a pump. And would not have a shower pressure as good either. As he already has a heating system that they are happy with ,what would be the benefit of a combi ,I can't see any really. How about you copea ?

 

[copea]

Future-proofing, comfort and efficiency would be very good reasons.

 

[Hot&Cold]

Warm Air Heating (WAH) system (Johnson and Starley JB25-30) installed which has been maintained well and serviced each year from its install in 1992 that we want to keep.

What we dont know is how long will the above heater will be serviceable.Many gas technicians do not work on these heaters.

Dare I say it, but wouldn't a combi boiler suit your needs perfectly?

Looking ahead for dual fuel efficiency and a decent shower without a pump the combi option should be considered.

Maybe have your immersion heater changed and consider a full heating-hotwater upgrade

 

[terryplumb]

They are already comfortably heated ,the efficiency can only be realised by cost savings ,the outlay would be in the thousands and the savings would take ten years to recover.the boiler would need yearly servicing costs ,not to mention costs of breakdowns. His hot water cylinder MAY need replacing ,but may not ,and are relatively maintenance free. The payback recovery would take longer than the useful life of most combi boilers ,so future proofing isn't really the case. Need more convincing if I were to go down the combi route.