Grade 2 Listed House

[lavinpj1]

Hey Folks,

We're looking to move house (upsizing) and have a fairly decent budget. Our search area is pretty limited by a number of factors and the only potential properties that fit the requirements are all Grade 2 Listed.

None of them are perfect and would need some work to get them to our requirements. For example, one of them is an 8 (!!) bedroom house which really needs some internal walls moving around to make fewer larger bedrooms - some with ensuites etc. It has a considerable outbuilding suitable for a workshop, but this has an open front so would need doors adding for security. The garden is almost entirely very old block-style paving which isn't entirely suitable for kids playing out - some grass would be nice. There's plenty of stuff we'd want to change - these are just a few examples.

I understand we'd need permission for these sort of changes but what is people's experience with getting it?

Is there a sizeable fee to the council every time you want to do something or is this something they can do relatively cheaply?

Are they generally receptive to activities like this, as long as they're done sympathetically and in-keeping with the age/area of the property or will they push back for the sake of justifying their job, like the planners do?

How much limitation would they normally put on the method of achieving internal changes (e.g. no gypsum based plaster, only lead paint, etc...)?

The million dollar question is - if you've had experience of doing major renovations in a Grade 2 listed house, would you do it again or stay well clear?

I don't want to commit to a "forever home" and then spend the next 10 years fighting the council to get it to how we want it.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated


Phil

 

[blup]

IIRC it's about changes that affect the historic or architectural character of the property so that can include internal works. You may also need separate planning permission for external works on top of LB consent.

Blup

 

[lavinpj1]

IIRC it's about changes that affect the historic or architectural character of the property so that can include internal works. You may also need separate planning permission for external works on top of LB consent.

Blup

Hey! Thanks for the reply. Understand basically everything I said would need permission. Just wondering what people’s experience is dealing with the council on this sort of stuff. Is it expensive, are they overly pendantic, etc.

 

[jeds]

I apply for planning and listed building consent on a regular basis and am currently managing build and conversion projects for a listed farmhouse/farmstead and another for a substantial manor house that is grade ii*.

Unfortunately there isn't a definitive answer to your question. (I bet you knew that) It depends on many things, some of which blup listed. Buildings can be listed for many reasons and back when the listed building act was first brought in there was a deadline to have properties spot listed on inauguration. Conservation people ran around the countryside doing drive-bys and writing descriptions of what they could see from the public road with no access to the actual property. That is the reason why many listings only mention the facade of the building and also brought about the fallacy of 'only the facade' is listed. Which of course is nonsense.

The result is that many listed buildings are of very little historic value. If you buy one of those you'll get an easier ride. Most probably sit somewhere in the middle in that they aren't particularly valuable but have some valuable features. If you want to remove an original staircase, you'll be out of luck. If you want to remove a 1970s pvc window and replace with with a period timber window you probably won't get any resistance. At the other end, I can tell you form very recent experience that grade ii* manor houses are a nightmare.

Finally, it also depends on the conservation officer. Some are complete idiots, others quite knowledgeable and helpful. Sometimes it also depends on the day of the week. You get one thing approved on a Tuesday but that doesn't guarantee you'll get the same or similar thing approved next Thursday.

 

[RandomGrinch]

Sorry, probably not helpful..

I've had dealings with conservation officers over a large listed building that is part of a complex.
One (stand-in) conservation officer came to visit, and she was literally crying on my shoulder, over the plans my organisation had for the place!
The next visit, the full-time officer was back, he said "Yes it's a working building, of course it's going to get knocked around - no issues for me!".

...all I can say for sure - results may vary

 

[blup]

Hey! Thanks for the reply. Understand basically everything I said would need permission. Just wondering what people’s experience is dealing with the council on this sort of stuff. Is it expensive, are they overly pendantic, etc.

My experienec is that they love their power even more than planners do. There are more consultations, and fewer of them about than planners so inevitably more bureaucratic and time consuming.

Blup

 

[bernardgreen]

Jeds has summed it up well.

My thatched cottage is listed, When I bought it 10 years ago there was no central heating, antiquated electrics, antiquated plumbing and it also required some structural repairs due to damp having damaged some of the joists and internal walls.

The Conservation Officers I have dealt with have all been very helpful in allowing essential repairs and improvements that did not alter the external appearance. They also recognised the need to allow internal "modernisation" to ensure the property could be lived in and thus maintained,

At the other extreme I knew of a semi-derelict cottage ( the elderly occupant only used two ground floor rooms ) which a friend of a colleague inherited when the occupant passed away. When the job's worth conservation officer refused permission to modernise the property to make it saleable the new owner decided to abandon it. He was told if he did abandon it then enforcement action would be taken to prevent it becoming derelict. He considered selling to an oversea owner for a give away price. This "softened" up the conservation people and permission to modernise internally was eventually granted,

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

It's also worth noting that some LA's don't even employ a conservation officer, round here some authority's just tap into the services of a local conversationalist as and when and they often work for different authority's so consistency can also be an issue, the whole planning shebang went pretty sour in the 2008 crash IMO.

 

[lavinpj1]

Thanks all. Interesting re the history of it, Jeds. I think you’ve summed up this particular house perfectly. The frontage is described on the listing and nothing else. It’s on a pretty average street in a pretty average Midlands town, surrounded by 60s dormer bungalows. It’s certainly not a manor house!

What gives me some confidence is that the current owners have really modernised the downstairs whilst retaining the original features. This would make me think the planners around here are fairly reasonable when it comes to listed houses of no significant importance.

I’ll see if I can have a word with them about their experiences.

Can anybody advise on the processes? If you wanted to, for example, knock through a wall. Would you have to submit a formal application to the planner and what sort of cost is associated with this?

 

[jeds]

Yes you need to apply, just a question of type of application? Internal works do not require planning permission, so you'd apply for listed building works only. If you carry out works that requires planning permission you would apply for both at the same time. Fee for planning is the same as any householder fee - couple of hundred quid - there is no fee for listed building application. Fee for putting together the application depends on the complexity and if you use a consultant. Some people do it themselves - although it can be quite challenging - others CBArs'd and just want it done.

 

[blup]

Jeds has summed it up well.

My thatched cottage is listed, When I bought it 10 years ago there was no central heating, antiquated electrics, antiquated plumbing and it also required some structural repairs due to damp having damaged some of the joists and internal walls.

The Conservation Officers I have dealt with have all been very helpful in allowing essential repairs and improvements that did not alter the external appearance. They also recognised the need to allow internal "modernisation" to ensure the property could be lived in and thus maintained,

At the other extreme I knew of a semi-derelict cottage ( the elderly occupant only used two ground floor rooms ) which a friend of a colleague inherited when the occupant passed away. When the job's worth conservation officer refused permission to modernise the property to make it saleable the new owner decided to abandon it. He was told if he did abandon it then enforcement action would be taken to prevent it becoming derelict. He considered selling to an oversea owner for a give away price. This "softened" up the conservation people and permission to modernise internally was eventually granted,

Bear in mind if the planning authority serve a lb enforcement notice they have to cpo it if the owner declines to do the works, in practice this puts off any action

Blup

 

[^woody^]

You'll need to find out what the listing is for, as that determines what you can do.

The listing officer will be concerned to retain the features of the listing, and will resist any works that would compromise the listed features. Works to the listed features will need to be done sympathetically and normally with traditional materials to a good standard - eg not your average checkatrader.

Any approval will be conditioned and inspected, but otherwise not onerous, or difficult to achieve.

Don't try and bodge the works or play the system though, as planners and local busy bodies hate that, and can lead to a lot of pain and cost.