Green and yellow wires not used as earth and missing earths.

[RF Lighting]

Class II wireless thermostat receiver.........I wonder whether that item actually qualifies as 'a point or accessory' of the installation to which it is required to run a CPC.

Yes of course it does and a CPC is required.

Let's face it, it's theoretically possible that the item might come with a pre-fitted cable which had no core for a CPC. As I said, it's really analogous to any situation in which some Class II item is 'hard-wired' to an FCU - do you believe that the regs require a CPU to be run 'beyond' that FCU and, if so, how would you set about complying with the regulation if the item in question came with a pre-fitted 2-core cable?

If the item is pre wired and the flex can not be replaced then as long as the point it is connected to has an earth connection then this is compliant.

 

[ericmark]

I can to some extent see @JohnW2 point, a standard lamp with a two core flex if using a FCU instead of a plug and socket would fall foul of the regulations. But there is a difference between an appliance and an installation. Well maybe not as much as I would like.

I would have considered a standard lamp as an appliance, even if connected using a FCU, however the government does not agree, it states that any item fixed is to be regarded as the installation, so the bathroom extractor, the boiler, the immersion heater, the cooker all come under the umbrella of the installation, so a standard lamp supplied from a FCU is clearly fixed so yes part of the installation.

So it seems we are back to the English rather than the electrics,

Electrical installation (abbr: installation). An assembly of associated electrical equipment having co-ordinated characteristics to fulfil specific purposes.

not very helpful.

“consumer’s installation” means the electric lines situated upon the consumer’s side of the supply terminals together with any equipment permanently connected or intended to be permanently connected thereto on that side;

that is a little better, but not really what I would have considered as an electrical installation.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes of course it does and a CPC is required.

It's all very well to say that, but ...

If the item is pre wired and the flex can not be replaced then as long as the point it is connected to has an earth connection then this is compliant.

Is that really appreciably different from the (more common) situation in which the item is not pre-wired, but does not have a terminal to which to connect a CPC (hence requiring some sort of 'bodge' to deal with the downstream end of the unwanted CPC)?

I agree with you that what matters is that 'the point to which it is connected has an earth connection', but I don't really see why it makes any difference whether the cable (which doesn't have enough cores to carry a CPC) was connected to the item by me or by someone in a factory.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I can to some extent see @JohnW2 point, a standard lamp with a two core flex if using a FCU instead of a plug and socket would fall foul of the regulations.

... only if, as you go on to say, the lamp is regarded as being part of the electrical installation, which doesn't seem particularly sensible to me.

After all (assuming it is a Class II lamp), if one connected its 2-core cable to the appropriate two pins of a plug and plugged it into a socket, no-one would dream of suggesting that any regulation was being violated.

Indeed, at least electrically speaking, anything which is normally connected by a BS1363 plug/socket could, if one so wished, be connected to an FCU - - so, again, is it being seriously suggested that any Class II item with a 2-core lead would be violating the regulations if used in that way?

Kind Regards, John

 

[RF Lighting]

I don’t understand what is difficult about this. You must run an earth to every point.

If an item is pre-wired it is connected to a point.

 

[JohnW2]

I don’t understand what is difficult about this. You must run an earth to every point. If an item is pre-wired it is connected to a point.

Indeed - but, as I just wrote, providing the 'point' to which it is connected has an earth, I really don't see why it makes a difference whether the item was ("pre-") wired by a man/woman in a factory or by myself. Once 'the wiring' had been done, no-one would have a clue as to who made those connections, or where (factory or wherever) they did it.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

Again I have to agree with @JohnW2 it makes no difference if pre-assembled or assembled on site. What seems to make the difference is plug and socket or hard wired. Or if the item comes under PAT testing or EICR.

To my mind a hand drier is an appliance so it comes under inspection and testing of in-service electrical equipment not an EICR. And I think you are seeing my point to an extent, it is the demarcation line between PAT testing and EICR which is presenting a problem. To my mind installation is the wiring, it does not matter if connected with a cooker connection unit, a FCU or a plug and socket, however the government does not it seems see it that way.

So daft as it seems, if you connect a standard lamp using a FCU you need to connect an earth even if the lamp is class II, and I just can't get my head around that.

 

[JohnW2]

So daft as it seems, if you connect a standard lamp using a FCU you need to connect an earth even if the lamp is class II, and I just can't get my head around that.

Nor can I, and that's why I don't believe that it what is/was intended.

I strongly suspect that those who wrote the regulation assumed that others would apply the same common sense as themselves, by not considering that Class II things like lamps, hairdryers or whatever (maybe including the receiver of a wireless thermostat) would suddenly become become parts of the installation (hence 'points in the installation', to which a CPC had to be run), simply because they had been connected via an FCU.

Kind Regards, John

 

[RF Lighting]

You’ve conveniently not mentioned where I said if the flex can not be replaced.

If the item is part of the fixed installation and can be replaced without replacing the cable supplying it then it must have an earth regardless of whether it is needed or not.

 

[ericmark]

You’ve conveniently not mentioned where I said if the flex can not be replaced.

If the item is part of the fixed installation and can be replaced without replacing the cable supplying it then it must have an earth regardless of whether it is needed or not.

I agree common sense says that, but not the regulations. And what we are looking at is telling some one the wiring is not to British standard and the whole of his central heating needs rewiring because some plumber could not see why we need a earth wire to every device even when the device is class II, so we need to explain why he needs to spend £x to comply with a regulation which we as time served sparks can't actually see the reason for.

When it comes to a light switch we will tell people you can't use that switch because it needs a neutral which you have not got, so why can't we simply say you can't use that thermostat as it needs an earth which you have not got? But it seems it's OK not to run a neutral but not OK not to run an earth.

Yes we know why, but how do we explain that to the DIY guy.

 

[JohnW2]

You’ve conveniently not mentioned where I said if the flex can not be replaced. If the item is part of the fixed installation and can be replaced without replacing the cable supplying it then it must have an earth regardless of whether it is needed or not.

You seem to be assuming that, just because a particular item comes with a pre-fitted cable means that the item could not be replaced without replacing the cable. Strictly speaking, that is rarely true (only true if the item cannot be opened in order to access the connections to the cable) - and don't forget that this whole business seems to be about what silly/non-compliant things people might do in the future.

I'm not just being awkward/silly/argumentative, since I think there is an important point here in terms of deciding what constitutes (and does not constitute) 'part of the fixed installation' - and I do not think that is simply a matter of considering whether or not it is literally 'hard-wired' (e.g. to an FCU).

Let's face it, thinking 'the other way around', one could take almost anything that was normally considered to be 'obviously part of the fixed installation' and connect it to the rest of the installation using some appropriate plug and socket - but to then declare that it had suddenly ceased to be part of the 'fixed installation' would seem to me to be as silly/inappropriate as saying that connecting a table lamp to an FCU suddenly makes it 'part of the fixed installation'.

In other words, I would like to think that 'the fixed installation' would be defined with the use of common sense, not only by considering whether or not something was literally 'hard wired'.

Returning to the wireless thermostat receiver, with it's 5-core cable (without CPC), if I cut that cable and interposed some sort of 5-pin plug+socket, would you then say it was OK that it didn't have a CPC going to it?

Kind Regards, John

 

[RF Lighting]

Can you show me an example of this wireless receiver?

 

[JohnW2]

Can you show me an example of this wireless receiver?

I certainly can't - I've never personally come across an such animal (and probably never will - I'm sure I would always find a way of hard-wiring a thermostat!).

However, not seeing it shouldn't prevent you from answering my question - if it were connected to the boiler (which did have an earth) via 5-pin plug+socket (at the boiler end), would you then be happy for the cable between the plug/socket and the item (assumed to be Class II) not to contain a CPC?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

deleted - pressed Reply rather than Edit, again!

 

[RF Lighting]

I think it’s pointless debating unicorn devices for the point of proving the regulations wrong.

Can you provide an example of a 5 pin plug and socket arrangement which does not require an earth connection?