Grown out of an Accenta G4 - where next?

[daern]

Hi all,

Some 15-ish years ago, I installed an Accenta G4 in my house (UK) and it's done sterling service, never missing a beat. But, we've outgrown it now and so the time has come to replace it.

Specific requirements that we need for a new one:

• Wired (not wireless)
• 16 zones
• Wired remote extension module support (for use in outbuildings) supporting both I/O and, ideally, local keypads too
• Wired alarm outputs (for integration with my existing home automation setup) - would consider ethernet option too if reasonably well documented/supported
• Remote dial-out (can continue to use my existing external dialler if this is easiest)
• Would make use of existing wiring (6 core alarm) and, ideally, sensors too
• Can part-set (e.g. for outbuildings)
• DIY-able (i.e. has some documentation!)

Was looking at the Honeywell Galaxy as one option (looks a bit heavy for a domestic install!), but would be interesting in other recommendations. I'm not a professional alarm installer, but a solidly capable DIYer with a background in professional electronics.

Many thanks in advance for any suggestions or recommendations.

 

[secureiam]

So wired remote stations?

so wired back to the main panel, so how do you intend to get cables back and how long are they to be run?

what dialler is being used?

home automation being used (ie outputs firing what system).

Local keypads (how many hardwired at what locations from the panel)

 

[daern]

Thanks for the reply. Answers:

So wired remote stations?

so wired back to the main panel, so how do you intend to get cables back and how long are they to be run?

Already being dug in. Not knowing quite what I'll be using, I've got a few runs of 6 core alarm, and a few of CAT6 so can choose which I use. The ideal, I guess, would be a system that uses a single CAT6 to connect the main system to the satellite module, which then allows me to connect the various sensors, PIRs and whathaveyou locally in the outbuilding, as well as a remote keypad, but if that needs a couple of drops of cable to achieve, so be it. Runs are < 50m.

what dialler is being used?

Current one is a basic Informer PSTN dialler triggered from the Accenta's alarm outputs. Can use or replace as required - it wasn't the most expensive thing in the world, but has done the job ok.

home automation being used (ie outputs firing what system).

Home Assistant, but I have a fair bit of flexibility. Currently interfacing via a bespoke Arduino MQTT interface using the alarm outputs on the existing system, but this can be easily changed as required. Firing on set/unset/alarm triggered/alarm reset (that's all the current panel offers on the alarm outputs!) Remote set/unset would be useful, although would need to consider security implications of this.

Local keypads (how many hardwired at what locations from the panel)

Two in the house - one about 5m from the panel, one maybe 20m away (both wired directly back to the main panel, not daisychained) + any new ones added onto outbuildings. (currently alarmed on a spare zone and enabled/disabled from the house).

 

[secureiam]

do you have mains power at the remote locations

 

[daern]

do you have mains power at the remote locations

Yes. Don't mind powering remotely, providing that a power cut at the remote location would trigger as a tamper fault (i.e. shutting off the power would be an automatic alarm situation).

 

[secureiam]

The issue is power and this determines your hard wired option and powered psu's.

For example 16 hard wired devices can be handled by a panel and a single expander on most systems.
runs of less than 100M or decent cable shouldn't be an issue at all. What the cables share the trench with could be an issue with wrt to electrical interference so as long as that is address it isn't a big issue to be fair.

The question then comes down to powered devices on the system, keypads, bell and to a lesser extent powered detectors.

at 100M or lots of power hunger devices then a locally powered expander might be a consideration, this would have its own back up battery and would be monitored by the expander that is remotely powered and reported to the panel.

The remote powered psu would if done correctly advise of a power fault and once the back up battery went then things would let loose with zone activations and bell activations if attached.

The rest is just programming.

 

[daern]

The issue is power and this determines your hard wired option and powered psu's.

For example 16 hard wired devices can be handled by a panel and a single expander on most systems.
runs of less than 100M or decent cable shouldn't be an issue at all. What the cables share the trench with could be an issue with wrt to electrical interference so as long as that is address it isn't a big issue to be fair.

The question then comes down to powered devices on the system, keypads, bell and to a lesser extent powered detectors.

at 100M or lots of power hunger devices then a locally powered expander might be a consideration, this would have its own back up battery and would be monitored by the expander that is remotely powered and reported to the panel.

The remote powered psu would if done correctly advise of a power fault and once the back up battery went then things would let loose with zone activations and bell activations if attached.

The rest is just programming.

Thanks. The cables are (for logistical reasons) sharing the path through the house with the power cable, but it's armoured which should (I hope!) provide enough shielding and if I end up using the CAT6 cable, that's shielded too. There will be nothing electrically noisy running on that power feed either (just lights and passive heating), so hoping it will be ok.

Do you have any thoughts on what make/model systems might fit these requirements? Would rather not go too far into commercial systems - I read that the Honeywell Galaxy might require specialist (and expensive!) programming software, which as an "enthusiastic amateur", I would much rather avoid if possible. Effectively, I quite liked the old Accenta, so something along those lines, with a few more features (part set, for one!) and the ability to add expanders would suit me down to the ground.

 

[secureiam]

The accenta has/is being finally retired after around 40 years service and there has been minor changes over the years.

The accenta has 3 sets/programs full set is program 1 and the others for part set basically although not sure how clear that actually is the manuals. The next jump is leagues apart from a basic accenta.

Everything can be programmed via a keypad, as for which system suits your needs best, really depends on what you want.

I don't know the job well enough to give very specific advice.


So you need to make a list of what things you want were and how you want to segregate them, ie house, outbuilding 1/ 2 garage etc etc as all these things determine what is possible.

all the panels at the accenta optima end of the market are not going to be suitable, ie not enough zones available for a start (so you be doubling up). Then there is a question of where you want to go in the future and planning in some flexibility.

As its diy, then you can only get things from sellers that are open to the public, usually if prices are displayed online the general public can buy from them.

If your using the accenta to fire off the home automation you need something with at least a similar number of outputs.

so minimum swap might be for a Veritas Excel (but you be sharing zones), but I would opt for the Premier Elite range.
Minimum would be a Premier Elite 24, with an 8XE or 8XP expander, but this allows you to split the system into two areas. But if you think the galaxy is OTT then the Premier is also OTT.

Like I say you need a better list of requirements and locations before panels/ configurations are put forward are put forward.

Think you then need to do some research and then come back with any questions.

 

[daern]

Thanks very much for your help. Will have a look at the Premier Elite 24 and do a bit of reading on specs and setup. Will download the installation manual and have a read and drop a note back if I have any further questions.

But if you think the galaxy is OTT then the Premier is also OTT.

Was more put off by the distinct lack of public installation materials (I guess it's only available for registered installers) and anecdotal forum posts about needing specific, relatively expensive software to configure it which makes it a pretty tricky option for a DIY installer. I had a read through the installation manual for it (everything is on the internet somewhere!) and it seemed OK, although my current star-wiring for the keypads might be an issue for the Galaxy, which appears to insist on daisy-chained wiring for them.

 

[secureiam]

The Smallest Texecom Premier elite Panel I put in as a 48 as it allows for future expansion but in domestics so many want wireless so a 64W, some of the panels I do are trade only so wouldnt help you.

 

[daern]

The Smallest Texecom Premier elite Panel I put in as a 48 as it allows for future expansion but in domestics so many want wireless so a 64W, some of the panels I do are trade only so wouldnt help you.

Just a quick look at the Premier Elite 48 suggests that it will do the job nicely. Quick "fag packet" design:

• Premier Elite 48
• 8XP expander in the house (to give 16 zones at the main panel - enough for the house zones) - might be able to manage without this.
• 8XP in the outbuildings (to give 8 local zones for wired contactors and PIRs)
• 3 x remote keypads (2 in house, 1 in outbuildings)
• External sounder in outbuilding (either fed from the local 8XP using an output, or via a direct wired connection from the main panel depending on best practice)
• Dialler (existing one will work with the digicomm outputs)
• Home automation interface (will probably just work with the digicomm outputs, but can easily be adapted. There's also a smartcom interface...!)
• Bellbox (current one looks to be compatible)

Fortunately, I don't need wireless in my use case so won't get snagged with the "trade only" restrictions on the higher spec models.

Looks a really good, flexible design compared to my current Accenta. I'd be amazed if it wouldn't easily do what I need.

 

[secureiam]

DIY can buy Texecom panels upto the largest 640 but not everywhere has them as an of the shelf item, however I deal with other manufacturers which are trade only.

I would opt for a PSU 200XP and run the expander and the bell for the outbuilding from that.

Then the house with or without an expander powered from the panel.

The bells power becomes the issue when in alarm, as you can see from posts on here. 2 bells at full power often exceed 1A but depends on the bell, its configuration and back light options. You can take the power from elsewhere if needed but iit would keep things simpler in my opinion.

It all depends on the sounder attached and its power requirements in alarm, the 48 (metal)panel has a 1A bell dedicated power circuit, the other advantage is knowing immediately which bell box has a tamper, ie panel and expander bellbox are displayed differently it would also make installation simpler.

You can use zones off the back of the keypads, so keypads in the house would give you 4 zones and the panel 8 zones,
however the cables have to come back to the keypad so this may limit your options based on existing wiring.

 

[daern]

I would opt for a PSU 200XP and run the expander and the bell for the outbuilding from that.

OK, so in this configuration you would only connect the common ground, "T" and "R" wires on the network link between the outbuilding 8XP and main panel, so that the two are separately powered, but still able to communicate. I assume that a power failure in the PSU200XP would trigger a tamper / alarm condition on the main panel?

I think separating the two makes a lot of sense in avoiding future problems with hitting power limits.

You can use zones off the back of the keypads, so keypads in the house would give you 4 zones and the panel 8 zones,
however the cables have to come back to the keypad so this may limit your options based on existing wiring.

Yeah, in a new-wiring scenario this would make a fair amount of sense in my house, but not when retrofitting as the wires are all in the wrong place and not easily (or tidily!) moved. I think that 8 zones in the house might be OK, as it frees up two zones currently used for outside anyway so would be enough for now (and I can always expand later if needed).

One more question: how important is it to have the firmware update cable and USB interface? Are firmware updates a common thing on these systems?

 

[secureiam]

The easiest way now is via the smartcom but you need a TCS account and that's currently trade only.

Although can be done with the flasher and the usb com lead, wouldn't be without mine but then again I am trade.
This applies to version 5 panels and above, anything below that on Premier Elite have to be manually flashed.

However the old Premier panels used the same equipment to flash up except the Old 24 and international panels.

The problems are costs versus services, currently for example could put a customer on a V2 visibility account for free, but not a managed account for free, but still can flash the panels either way. however anyone that's gone through this process will tell you it takes time and it cant be interrupted along with the upgrade commands having to be sent.

So installers would have to charge for that service, with the flasher and the cable thats a one off set of costs.

Firmware updates on more complicated panels are more common, on basic panels like the Accenta its made and shipped out and little ever changed.

Not all firmware upgrades are necessary, sometimes its to fix a specific problem, or add a new feature, in some cases performance improvements.

The exact events of power loss determine how the panel responds each psu has a back up battery (should have) so even if mains fails the panel and powered PSU will function for some time normally but will report mains power off.

 

[daern]

Thanks for your help on this. I've found a friendly dealer to supply me with what I need and will hopefully get an order in soon.

Just a couple more questions, if I may:

1) As I'll be covering some garage space, I was intending to use some dual-tech PIRs to minimise false alarms (something I've had a few of in the past, mostly traced to spiders getting into the sensors!) I'll be flooding the place with wifi and would rather that the PIRs don't interfere with it - is this still an issue any more, or can I confidently stick some sensors up without worrying too much? (Was planning to use Pyronix KX15DTAM which seem the right sort of thing for the job)
2) I'm planning to reuse the existing bell-box (which was only replaced a few years ago). It's got the normal bell connections but will obviously sound if I disconnect it. I've got two choices - go up the ladder and disconnect the battery while I'm swapping the panel, or spoof a panel by sticking a temporary 12v supply to the bell box while I'm working on the panel. I have to admit that the former option sounds much simpler to me, but I'd be interested in your opinion on which way to go about this.

Many thanks once again for your advice here.