hairdryer & shaver sockets in bathroom cupboard-can I do

[damurphster]

I'm about to put up a series of mirror units in my bathroom.

I currently have a standalone mirror light with shaver socket with an additional thing that heats the mirror when I put this light on.

I would like ditch the light but retain the mirror heater - not sure how I would turn it on, could I link it main light easily?

I would like at least one shaver socket in the cupboard - can I do this? Is it just a matter of having them a set distance from the water?

I would also like to be able to plug in a hair-dryer somehow - can I do this? Is my only option to have a permanent one hard-wired in a-la hotel style?

I will get an electrician to do the job but want to figure out the art of the possible first!

TIA

 

[ericmark]

The rules are complex and one question has to be when is a room classed as a bathroom and it is only by adding doors and barriers so the room is not classed as a bathroom that a hair drier can be fitted.

701.55 Current-using equipment lists what can be used in a bathroom and this does not include a hair drier.

Most items need type testing so any idea of converting items is out. You have to follow manufactures recommendations. So can't modify a mirror.

Yes the is a set distance for when a bedroom contains a shower for example 701.512.3 permits a socket 3 meters from shower tray. Horizontally of course. A normal bathroom is not big enough to have sockets.

Odd but it is shower and bath only you have no restrictions as to how close a socket is to wash basin or toilet.

As to doing odd things like 2.25 meter high barriers do remember it is up to guy doing the work and signing the paperwork and if he says no then no it is and so he is the guy to ask not on here.

 

[MalcofArabia]

Now that like Europe we have embraced the RCD it is strange we haven't relented on power supplies inside bathrooms.

Many hotels throughout Europe have hairdryers in the bathrooms and to be honest isn't that a totally logical place to have them. Most Electricians throughout Europe are amazed at our rules on power supplies in bathrooms. I wonder what the figures are for shocks related to the bathroom is in Europe, should we not be able to connect an hairdryer to a FCU in a bathroom if that circuit is RCD protected??

Should we now as an industry be rethinking our approach as we seem to be adopting Europeans standards more and more. I don't think I have ever not seen a bathroom in Europe without sockets of one type or another. Would we as Electricians be happy if the rukes were changed ??

 

[ericmark]

I was looking at a post about using some teeth cleaning machine and it used over the 20VA supplied by a shaver socket so either had to be use a rechargeable version or could not be used in bathroom.

But so many US films show the killing of victim by dropping hair drier into the bath we are all lead to believe this is a fatal mixture. So no one really looks at statistics but just take it for granted that it would be likely to cause deaths.

I question why we ever considered it was OK to use an electric (mains) shaver in a bathroom? From the time I started to shave now 60 there has always been battery models and most shavers have a plug similar to the 2.5A figure of 8 and so it would be very easy for it to become unplugged and fall in the water. When PAT testing I would not pass any radio in areas where there was water that used figure of 8 plugs because it was so easy for them to become unplugged and fall in the water.

So rather than say why can't we use power in the bathroom maybe we should ask why are shaver sockets permitted?

After all we don't have to shave in a bathroom and even if we do there are loads of cordless options and although I can see why a tooth brush should be used in the bathroom.

If we look at caravans we have to fit RCD's to both site outlet and caravan inlet and this is I would assume to ensure at least one RCD even if some one breaks the rules. So maybe same is considered with bathrooms.

Why should an isolation transformer be feed with a RCD? Touching the live wires from a shaver socket can never trip the RCD so why is it required?

In fact the bathroom is now the only place in a new house where you have not got RCD protection on the socket. Of course an RCD will never work on an isolated supply. It is in essence an IT supply yet it does not have the protection which has to go with any other IT supply. This is of course because it can only feed one item.

But maybe some data needs gathering and the whole situation re-thinking to line up with what is now available?

 

[flameport]

Just because certain countries allow socket outlets in the bathroom does not mean we should lower our standards to match theirs.
Hairdryers are bad enough, but normal sockets in a bathroom will just encourage other appliances to be used and left in the bathroom.

As for shaver sockets, there is a simple answer to those - ban their use completely.
Most (all?) shaver sockets are designed for intermittent use with an electric shaver of the type which has to be plugged in to operate - a rarity now.
They are not suitable for continuous loads such as recharging units for toothbrushes or rechargeable electric shavers.

RCDs are fine as additional protection. Hoping they will prevent people from using televisions, toasters and other items in a bathroom isn't going to work.
Consider this - a class 2 appliance thrown into a water filled plastic bathtub, which in a modern property will have plastic waste pipes. Will the RCD trip - highly unlikely, since where is the path to earth?
Will the MCB or fuse operate - highly unlikely, since the current between L&N via the water will be far too small.

 

[MalcofArabia]

Is it a lowing of our standards as such? are we all guilty of not being a little conceited to think we have the best and therefore other standards are wrong.

Quite a few designer bathrooms do have televisions in them and other gadgets and bathrooms have ceased to become just toilets and wash areas alone and are being integrated more into modern day living.

Yes I think a class 2 item may well trip an RCD in your scenario. Would not the water act as a conductor across the Neutral and CPC and activate it this way. Perhaps the same way if you touched the earth and neutral together on any circuit that is protected by a RCD. Because if you were holding the conductors by the insulation you are separating your self from the circuit by insulation and not creating the earth path. Also you do not require a good earth path for RCD protection as a 30mA will trip at 1667ohms

We can not deny that sockets are installed throughout the world in bathrooms, with and without proper protection in many places. I was just wondering if it would ever be accepted in the UK

 

[flameport]

Class 2 appliances don't have CPCs, they are usually fitted with 2 core flex.

 

[MalcofArabia]

Sorry flame was thinking of class 1 my mistake

Class 2 then might not trip at first but wouldn't the double insulation protect you from initial shock ,

 

[holmslaw]

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