Hanging external door between out of square brick walls

[AP77]

I am trying to fit an external door in an old outbuilding where the brick walls each side are out of square.

What is the best way to do this please?

a) Make the frame side batons square then fill in the gaps between the batons and the wall
or
b) Fix the frame side batons to the out of square wall then fill the gaps between the batons and the door

Attached is a rough sketch. The door is approximately 2 metres tall and the out of square gap at the top on both sides is about 2cm. The blue pen lines on the drawing are the out of square walls, the dashed lines are the proposed door.



Many thanks.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

a.

Ensure the frame is square by using shims where required. Gaps will be covered with architrave.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Check the level across the threshold to determine if the hinge side of the opening is higher or lower than the lock side. If it is lower add packers on the hinge side to rest the door frame onto as you install it.

Mark the positions of the top and bottom hinges on the wall, hinge side only. Fix a plywood packer to the masonry at the top hinge position. It doesn't matter what you fix them in position with (panel pins, oval nails, screws, etc) so long as you fix them.

Pack out the bottom hinge position so that a 6ft level shows a true plumb when laid onto the two sets of packers.

Position and fix a third set of packers in the middle of the opening (half way between top and bottom hinge packers). This must be plumb to the others

Cut a rod which is a couple of millimetres longer than the door frame is wide. Using the rod position and fix three sets of packers in the masonry on the lock side opposite the hinge side packers.

Offer in the door frame and fix it to the masonry at the three packed points on the hinge side. The fixing must go through the packers and into the masonry, not into the mortar joints. The straightness of the jamb can be checked using the 6ft level and any packing necessary to remove barreling added as required. The casing must be plumb both on the inside of the jamb and when checked on the outside edge of the frame, regardless of whether or not the wall is plumb

Level the head of the door frame using a 2ft level. If needs be place shims or wedges beneath the bottom of the lock side jamb to deal with any difference in level of the floor.

Trim the rod you cut earlier to be the same length as the door opening (nominally 6mm bigger than the actual width of the door which allows a 3mm gap at the sides)

Fix the frame on the block side to the masonry through the top packers. It may need an additional couple of 1 or 2mm packers to make a tight fit. Check with the rod to ensure thst the opening is consistent

Plumb up the lock side jamb (level on the edge) and fix through the lower set of packers, leaving a bit of slack in the screw to take up. Check the distance across the opening using the rod and add extra packers as needed.

Repeat for the middle packer set.

You can sometimes check if your frame is cross legged by sighting one leg at an obtuse angle and moving your head towards the wall to see of the other leg is in alignment.

For door frames which are flush, or where this method of checking is impossible (e.g a door frame in a narrow corridor) there is an alternative method of checking for a cross legged frame:

1. Push a pin into both top corners and bottom corners of the door frame

2. Wind a thin cord or piece of string starting bottom left corner and run the string to top right, top left and bottom right in order. At each pin the string must be hard against the wood work. Check where the strings cross in the middle of the opening. At this point if the jambs are coplanar (in line) the strings should just kiss each other

3. Rethread the string starting bottom right corner and running to top tight, top left and then bottom left in that order. Again the strings should just kiss in the middle.

4. If the strings don't kiss and there is a gap then one of the jambs isn't plumb and will need to be checked for plumb and adjusted.

Notes

A "rod" in this context is simply a straight piece of 2 x 1 planed softwood, rip of plywood, etc which can be cut to length and used to check distance. Once made it is more accurate and repeatable than any measuring tape will ever be (as well as not being subject to human error)

Whilst a 6ft level is ideal, it is expensive. A substitute can be fashioned from a 3 or 4ft level taped onto a dead straight piece of 3 x 2 CLS, 6ft long

When screwing through the frame pre pilot and countersink the screw holes. If using 5mm screws to fix the frame in place, pre pilot holes at 5.5 or 6mm. This ensures that should you want to reverse the screw out of the hole several times whilst adjusting the frame it will come out without bringing a big chunk of timber with it

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Ensure the frame is square by using shims where required. Gaps will be covered with architrave.

It is an exterior door frame, not a interior door lining or door casing. That probably means there will be no architraves as these are often not used on exterior frames

 

[diy_fun_uk]

It is an exterior door frame, not a interior door lining or door casing. That probably means there will be no architraves as these are often not used on exterior frames

True. My point was you throw the frame in square and any gaps between the frame and brickwork can be hidden by what I've referred to as architrave, could be beading or whatever. Similarly, caulking the resultant gaps might suffice negating the need to use wood to cover.

 

[Tigercubrider]

How far out is it? And will a standard square door liner/frame fit?
You could use hardwood and trace the brickwork into the hardwood, using a bandsaw or jigsaw to make a packer that exactly fits the profile of each wall. Then insert a factory made frame

 

[AP77]

Many thanks guys for all your ideas and suggestions.

So fundamentally, the correct way to do this is to pack between the frame and out of true brickwork....thank you.

The gap at the top left is about approximately 2 to 3cm and the same at the top right. I like the idea of trying to cut a wedge/tapered shaped piece of wood to use as a packer, which I guess will need to be the same width as the frame itself. I think that will probably give the neatest finish too and I can cut some kind of "architrave", i.e. a thin strip of wood to use as a facia covering the verticals and the packing. May be a bit fiddly but happy to spend the time on doing the best job I can.

As the exterior outbuilding is very old and the opening is an odd shape and size, I am making the frame and door myself to fit. The frame is nothing fancy, just two pieces of timbers for the verticals to be attached to the inner walls, plus 2 separate top and bottom timbers.

I had considered trying to use some filler/mastic/foam instead of the wedge/tapered piece of wood for filling the gap but I think maybe 2-3cm could be too much to fill successfully.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction as to the best way to proceed.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

You missed out another option, namely trim the masonry to be more square

Best way I know to fill gaps is to use traditional trowelling mastic which will cover up to about 25mm or more

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Whilst you obviously want to do a good job, depending on what the outhouse is used for can to an extent govern how precise you want finishes to be. For example if it's getting an overhaul/refurb to be used to sit in etc, you want everything more precise and 'neat' looking. If it's basically a store for household junk/stuff, then yes you want a decent job but having finishes as precise isn't quite as important.

Personally, I'd do the verticals with individual packers at the location of each fixing to ensure verticals don't bow when fixings are drawn in. Then fill gaps with any sort of exterior filler that can accommodate up to 30mm. Then cover areas where frame meets brick with basic trim.

 

[AP77]

Thanks again. Just looking up trowel mastic, not seen that before. I don't think I can trim the masonry to be more square due to the poor quality of the bricks and also lack of suitable tools.

diy_fun_UK: You are absolutely right, it is just an outside brick shed really, but I am always keen to try and do jobs the most professional way and am always eager to learn new tips and tricks.

I think as long as I can find a suitable filler to fill the gap (max 3cm) between the frame and the brickwork, then that is another option which is just as good as cutting a tapered piece of wood to fill the gap.

Thank you.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Try any builders merchant, Wickes or believe it or not Amazon. There's a bit if a knack to installing it, namely build it up in layers (leaving an hour or two between layers) and wet the trowel (a small pointed trowel will do) when working it.

I live in a stone district in the Pennines and nobody would spend the time to make a scribed infill (way too time consuming, plus they in invariably shrink or swell over time and they never ever fit tightly leading to draughts and water penetration). Mastic is the traditional way of sealing around windows and door frames up here, especially those in rough cast openings. You can also make your own burnt sand mastic from sand and linseed oil if you are keen, but using that is a tad more involved (cheap as chips, though). Filler behind it can be expanding foam or those poly tube gap fillers favoured by decos (Google "Fossa caulk saver")