Heating a large Village Hall

[Tristar]

Find the make of the valves, then look up remote sensors.

Thanks, I'll check that also.
Ref. LST panels: we won an award for the best Village Hall and they were not mentioned!

 

[oilman]

Although you would like to stop people making adjustments, is the hall used for different types of function? For example, where there are children running around, the temperature that wound suit a meeting of old people who were sitting down, would not be appropriate, and vice-versa. I'm just posing the question because your well meant efforts could easily go unappreciated.

 

[Tristar]

Although you would like to stop people making adjustments, is the hall used for different types of function? For example, where there are children running around, the temperature that wound suit a meeting of old people who were sitting down, would not be appropriate, and vice-versa. I'm just posing the question because your well meant efforts could easily go unappreciated.

Unfortunately, we cannot have a system where the temperature control can be adjusted to cater for every activity, but a system which allows a small variation, e.g. limited control TRV's or thermostat is feasible.

 

[Bamber gaspipe]

Our problem is that people keep altering the settings on the radiator valves, effectively just using them as ON/OFF switches, causing the obvious results

.

Turn the boiler off completely, let them freeze for a few weeks, then tell them the problem was caused by people tampering with the valves.

That will put paid to any tampering.

 

[Onetap]

...and install a BEM5000 weather compensation kit to the boiler. Then you have the benefit that the system temp is adjusted as per the outside temp and not by someone messing around with trvs.

No.

The BEM (boiler energy manager) is obsolete, you will not find it listed on the Danfoss website. You will find it on some out-of-date internet pages or in some stockists. It controlled the boiler flow temperature by delaying switching the boiler on and it caused huge corrosion problems with non-condensing boilers.

Fit a weather compensated (aka outdoor reset) system. There's two types, system reset (mixing valve) and boiler reset (modulating boiler). If you fit a mixing valve, you could keep the existing boilers. If non-condensing, you need to ensure the flow temperature is kept above about 56 degC to prevent back-end corrosion.

You need a boost facility, to ensure the flow temperature is high on start-up, to bring the hall up to temperature rapidly, and frost protection. Some modern boilers control the flow temperature by modulating the burner.

I'm not sure about the best source for controls, 'cos I deal with commercial BMS stuff and I'm not a controls engineer. You can get systems that control to an average of several temperature sensors. A modern BMS system could be connected to the internet to allow the system to be checked and to allow remore reporting of alarms.

You end up with a system that has continuous flow and the flow temperature is varied to maintain the temperature set-point. The usual installation is an on or off pump controlled by a thermostat and a fixed high flow temperature.

Get covers for the TRVs. When the TRVs are proved to be unnecessary, remove them and fit lockshield valves on both ends of the rad. Temperature adjustement is then by a knob on the sensor(s).

Be warned, you go ask a local heating contractor about this, he'll look at you like you're from another planet. This is not because it's exotic or complicated, it's because most UK heating contractors fit a thermostat and a mid-position valve and can't grasp anything different.

If there's a floor void, make a long-term plan for UFH.

Shouldn't the rads have LST panels over the them, being a public area and all that rubbish

No. Only if it is to be used by 'at-risk' people (very elderly, very young, very disabled). If there's a disabled toilet, you should have LST heat emitters in there and a TMV on the wash basin.

The moduating-temperature heating system mentioned above will operate for most of the year at reduced temperatures, reducing the risk of contact burns from radiators.

 

[doitall]

Well Onetap, I would expect the village hall of the year to cater for all those person types and some in between

 

[Tristar]

Thanks a lot guys, plenty of good stuff in here.
Onetap, your system sounds good (and it is non-condensing), but also sounds very expensive, I think it is back to limiting TRV control.

Cheers

 

[Doctor Drivel]

Are there sturdy lockable thermostatic valves available? Or, would it be feasible to do away with the radiator thermostatic valves and fit, say, four room thermostats connected such that they "voted" to control heat demand?

Thanks

Fit lockshields on all rads and install a BEM5000 weather compensation kit to the boiler.

Is the BEM5000 still made?

 

[Onetap]

Onetap, your system sounds good (and it is non-condensing), but also sounds very expensive, I think it is back to limiting TRV control.
Cheers

It recovers the costs in fuel savings, many times over.

You're trying to specify the most cost-effective system with a very limited knowledge of what is available.

 

[Doctor Drivel]

...and install a BEM5000 weather compensation kit to the boiler. Then you have the benefit that the system temp is adjusted as per the outside temp and not by someone messing around with trvs.

No.

The BEM (boiler energy manager) is obsolete, you will not find it listed on the Danfoss website. You will find it on some out-of-date internet pages or in some stockists. It controlled the boiler flow temperature by delaying switching the boiler on and it caused huge corrosion problems with non-condensing boilers.

It never. The idiots who implemented without boiler backend protection caused corrosion.

Fit a weather compensated (aka outdoor reset) system. There's two types, system reset (mixing valve) and boiler reset (modulating boiler). If you fit a mixing valve, you could keep the existing boilers. If non-condensing, you need to ensure the flow temperature is kept above about 56 degC to prevent back-end corrosion.

I thought the BEM500 was a weather compensator. If a condenser the boilers can be directly switched. This is screaming out for a boiler with integral weather compensation and an OpenTherm room temp sensor. The boilers may be capable of having compensators fitted as a modules. Best check.

1. If a modern condensing boilers, check if an outside weather compensator module is available. BEST OPTION.

2. Check if the boiler has an OpenTherm standard connection. Fit an OpenTherm room sensor and this modulates the burner to suit the room setpoint. It will a condenser with OpenTherm

3. If a condenser and no weather compensator module then directly switch with a Landis & Staefa stand alone compensator with room temp influence. No valves needed.

4. If a non-condensing boiler then Landis & Staefa have controller that will sense room temperature and the return temp. Set the return temp to not drop 60C for back-end boiler protection. It also will switch the burner to maintain the room temp a sensor is in the room (a small box). Not vheap but this is a commercial system.

When working for a control company when these came out I would try and get the mechanical designers to sue them and save on back modulating valves. They wouldn't believe us. We could have saved them lots of money.

Then - Get rid of the TRVs.

 

[Tristar]

Wow! I'm overwhelmed with the help.

Thanks a bunch. I am sure we can use all this advice to get a good set-up.

Cheers

 

[Doctor Drivel]

Wow! I'm overwhelmed with the help.

Thanks a bunch. I am sure we can use all this advice to get a good set-up.

Cheers

More info needed. The boilers? Are they system boilers? Are the pumps separate? etc.

TRVs are a curse. They restrict flow through the boiler.

 

[oilman]

Wow! I'm overwhelmed with the help.

Thanks a bunch. I am sure we can use all this advice to get a good set-up.

Cheers

No chance, you are doomed to failure. You will not get a setup that can satisfy one person at different times of the same day, let alone a number of people, and worse still a number of diverse groups.

Fact of life, the most comfortable temperature is the one that I decide is the right one from minute to minute.

 

[htgeng]

...and install a BEM5000 weather compensation kit to the boiler. Then you have the benefit that the system temp is adjusted as per the outside temp and not by someone messing around with trvs.

No.

The BEM (boiler energy manager) is obsolete, you will not find it listed on the Danfoss website. You will find it on some out-of-date internet pages or in some stockists. It controlled the boiler flow temperature by delaying switching the boiler on and it caused huge corrosion problems with non-condensing boilers.

It never. The idiots who implemented without boiler backend protection caused corrosion.

I think the BEM unit has an jumper option for non-condensing boilers. I can't find my install instructions atm. I can get hold of a couple of brand new bem units if needs be, but I didn't realise they had stopped making them!

In an ideal world you would replace the boiler with a weather compensated boiler - there are several on the market- Viessmann and Atag have the electronics built in as standard.

 

[Tristar]

Wow! I'm overwhelmed with the help.

Thanks a bunch. I am sure we can use all this advice to get a good set-up.

Cheers

No chance, you are doomed to failure. You will not get a setup that can satisfy one person at different times of the same day, let alone a number of people, and worse still a number of diverse groups.

By good setup, I mean one that suits the majority, I agree that we can never please everyone, but such is life!