Help Needed In France, Just Had A Nasty Shock......

[lummocks]

i'm cuurently staying in a large house in France with some family (12 of us!) My partner the other day said she got a shock off the washing machine, I ignorantly put it down to static, but when I came to use the same device today I got one hell of a belt. My arm is still tingling now and this was a few hrs ago. I happen to have my multimeter with me so I tested for voltage between the chassis of the washer and the earth pin of an ajacent socket and found a few mV but to my horror when I tested between the washer and the copper pipe feeding it I picked up around 90vAC, I then did the same test with the other washing machine next to it and had virtually the same reading.

We are having trouble getting hold of the owner of the house but my concerns with the wiring in this house is growing especially anything connected to the water supply....what I can't get my head round with my basic knowledge is why are the trips not working? This surly can't be a coincidence with the two washing machines, at the moment i'm thinking that the copper pipes aren't earthed and there is a problem with a conductor touching a pipe somewhere? Not my job to investigate I know.

 

[RF Lighting]

It's more likely to be the other way around.

Copper pipes earthed, and the washer not.

90VAC is a pretty typical reading for an open circuit CPC. If there were a fault to a non earthed pipe, then I'd expect the full 230V to be present.

In the mean time, you need to unplug the washer, and do not use that socket until you can get someone to look at it.

I don't know much about french wiring, but it is possible that you have a TT system with a failed RCD maybe?

 

[Chri5]

The french use radial circuits, normally zoned.

 

[lummocks]

Thanks guys, thinking about my post that makes more sense that indeed the pipes are earhed due to the potential difference between the drum/chassis of the machines and the copper pipe. The house is a large house that seems to be split in two, with two seperate c/u in each end of the house.

Thanks in again, we will try and get hold of the owner again...bit of a nightmare he's in bloody zimbabwe or somewhere like that! Still got another two weeks of the holdiday left aswell.

 

[lummocks]

90VAC is a pretty typical reading for an open circuit CPC. If there were a fault to a non earthed pipe, then I'd expect the full 230V to be present.

What is a CPC mate?

 

[RF Lighting]

CPC = circuit protective conductor (earth wire).

An open circuit CPC means the 'earth wire' in the socket has lost it's connection to earth at some point in the installation.

Might be at the socket front, or there might be no earth to the property, or at any point in between.

 

[industryspark]

CPC = circuit protective conductor (earth)

 

[industryspark]

talk about timing RF, beat me by a nanosecond

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Or possibly 59,999,999,999 nanoseconds...

 

[tim west]

Shouldnt this be in Electrics outside the UK?

 

[Master of None]

Sorry to bring this thread back to top but it remind me of when I bought my current house 7 years ago. I had the same thing with my washing mc. Call my electrician friend (none domestic) and he replied "Disconnected cpc, check the connection at socket". To my horror I removed the socket and felt no tug from the conductors, the wires had just been located in the terminals and not tightened. This proved the same for most of the sockets including the 40A cooker outlet . I think the lesson here is If you have a trade at your house eg. kitchen fitter, tiler etc. If they cant prove to you that they are competent with electrics. Get an electrician

Sorry to ask a basic question (don't worry I am not an electrician) but...
Surely the washing mc casing is completely insulated from the live parts, and so how can it become live at 90vac. induction maybe? and if so how does it not trip an RCD when you touch it and provide some earth leakage?

 

[Spark123]

Could be induction, more likely it is a filter used to filter out noise to the mains - usually formed from a few capacitors and inductors between all the conductors (including the earth).

 

[lummocks]

would this be the reason for not getting the full supply voltage then? I'm thinking if the earth was connected the trips would go?

 

[Monkeynuts2]

Just thought i would add my bit on this?

I have a house in France .
The electrics were worrying to say the least


No earth cable from mains consumer unit

No earth cable on plugs sockets

Some Power sockets were wired into the lighting circuit

The best one was after shutting down the main isolator switch for the house electrics the lights in the hallway would stay on?

Tony..

 

[solair]

If there are no earth pins on the socket, your wiring is absolutely ancient.

You absolutely need to get a local electrician in to review and upgrade your entire house. That sounds very dangerous.

There are plenty of cases of very bad cheap DIY jobs and 'handymen' doing jobs they're clearly not qualified, licensed or competent to do.

The washing machine shock could be literally anything. Earthing systems are more complicated than they seem at first glance and you do need to have a full understand of French wiring practice and the systems used in your property before making any modification.

For example, I have seen a case where some from the UK bonded pipes in France and managed to actually introduce voltages to the pipework as he did not understand that he was working with a completely different earthing system.

Electrical systems are generally very safe when they're installed TO THE LOCAL CODE.

The problem is invariably bad DIY by people who don't have a clue what they're doing.

Electrical regulations in France are actually quite tough, compared to the UK. They would fail that installation pretty readily should it be inspected.