Help needed with Sky setup in block of flats

[TheGaffersSon]

Hi I am currently wiring a block of 80 flats. Part of my job is to install a TV system to the lounge of the flat with a standard TV ariel in the bedroom. I am to use the module type faceplates.

From what I have been told I am to run a dual coax to the lounge for the sky+, then a single coax to the bedroom.

However, with the faceplates there is no physical connection from one cable to the other, the 2 core connect to a sky module with SAT 1 + SAT 2, and then the single cable will connect to a standard ariel socket. I have been told that the sky box will link the two modules out therefore sending a signal to the bedroom. However Im not convinced. Can anybody clear this up? Also is it true that sky multiroom would require a seperate twin cable to each room from the ariel.

Many thanks.
Jamie.

 

[OwainDIYer]

Yes, the Sky box has an RF output which sends the currently-viewed programme out on a UHF channel. There's a Magic Eye system whereby a remote control in the bedroom can change the programme received by the Sky box.

If a Sky box isn't in use or a second Sky box is used in the bedroom then one of the 'supply' sockets is linked to the bedroom 'return' socket with a short patch lead.

Sky multiroom requires a cable from the dish or multiswitch (not aerial) to each Sky box, so that different programmes can be watched simultaneously.

Sky+ requires two cables from the dish or multiswitch (not aerial) to each Sky box, so that different programmes can be watched and recorded simultaneously.

The same applies to Freesat and Freesat+

Depending on the size and quality of the flats, and what's available on Freeview etc, two satellite feeds per flat may be scrimping. I'm looking at putting 2 feeds for Freesat+ into the lounge and main bedroom, 1 into each of the other 2 bedrooms and the kitchen, so that's 7 feeds for a 3-bedroom flat; and I think that's a fairly minimum spec. But then I'm doing it mostly myself for the cost of materials and I'm not a penny-pinching property developer.

 

[OwainDIYer]

To add - the bedroom link cable would be better terminated on F connectors to allow the satellite signal to be extended as I described; if aerial connector is used then only a UHF signal can be extended and it will not be possible to use a separate satellite box in the bedroom.

 

[Sam Gangee]

It's also essential to use the correct type of coaxial cable.
Frankly, I think you shouldn't be doing the job. I would employ someone who has experience (and a good understanding of) installing signal wires ... and can spell "aerial".
See http://www.satcure.com/course.htm

 

[flameport]

From what I have been told I am to run a dual coax to the lounge for the sky+, then a single coax to the bedroom.

Told by who?

If you are supplying the headend (which for 80 flats will be a very substantial piece of work in itself), then you really should know what you are doing already.

If someone else is supplying it, you need a written specification from them which shows exactly what is required and where, including the specification of cable to use.

A twin sat feed to the lounge and another cable from there to a bedroom will work, but it really will be the absolute minimum. Presumably the plate to be fixed in each flat is one of those efforts with 2x sat, TV and FM sockets on the front, with another one marked 'return' or similar.

 

[TheGaffersSon]

Thanks for the replies.

Sam Gangee thanks for your reply. Your right, the fact I dont understand sky installations means I have should give up the job, because obviously the complex installation and the intellect needed to conquer an almighty coax plate is beyond me, I fear, I will never master the art. Im putting my tools on ebay tonight, my vans on the way to the auction as we speak. If only there were a website, forum if you like, where I could ask for advice and people in turn could share their knowledge. Wouldnt that be fantastic?

Anyway. The previous block we did was 85 flats with a dual-sat quad plate in each lounge. This was simply a dual coax to the quad plate going back to the ariel, for each flat. On this block, we have been asked to supply an additional aerial point in the bedrooms, this isnt for mulit-room, just a normal tv signal. The faceplates we are using are modular type. The lounge has a dual plate (Sat 1, Sat 2) plus a single aerial. The bedroom has a single aerial. I am told that the dual coax will connect to the Sat1 and Sat2 plate, and the single coax to the bedroom connects to the single aerial socket. Does this seem correct? Obviously there is no pysical link between the two modular units, but Im told the sky box will connect to all 3 points, therefore sending the signal to the bedroom which is basically an extension lead. Also will the signal in the bedroom be suitable for normal use ie with a freeview box. I appreciate you taking the time to help me out.

Jamie.

 

[ChrisFrost]

Sam Gangee thanks for your reply. Your right, the fact I dont understand sky installations means I have should give up the job, because obviously the complex installation and the intellect needed to conquer an almighty coax plate is beyond me, I fear, I will never master the art. Im putting my tools on ebay tonight, my vans on the way to the auction as we speak. If only there were a website, forum if you like, where I could ask for advice and people in turn could share their knowledge. Wouldnt that be fantastic?

Lol... but in all seriousness, you gave the briefest description of what you're doing....and from that it didn't really sound like you knew what you were doing. So you can't blame him for trying to steer you away from this.

In fact, even after your most recent posts it's still not clear if you guys are going to try to install the headend gear yourselves or if you're going to get in a contractor. Given that large scale installs like this have more stringent safety and insurance standards and require some specialist gear too to ensure equal signal levels etc then I would hope, for your sake and the safety of the residents, that you are handing over the headend install to a specialist contractor.

This then begs the question, if you are using a contractor then why haven't you asked them for advice? Of course if you're not using a contractor then your company will have to have a certain level of knowledge to complete the job. This goes well above what's needed to understand modular face plates, so why haven't you asked these questions within your company?

For the sake of completeness the install should use a multi-switch in to which the quattro LNB, a TV aerial, and FM and DAB aerials will go. Each outlet cable will carry all signals. The wall sockets will feature a frequency filter. Sat/TV/FM DAB. So it will be possible to have any signal in any room. For a single satellite feed you need only one cable which will cover 1x SAT + TV + FM/DAB. For twin satellite feeds you'll need a second cable drop from the head end.

Personally I wouldn't use grid module wall plates for a job like this. They're too fiddly, too inflexible and too expensive. Terminating in either a 1G or 2G diplex/triplex plate will cover most of your requirements. You can do a better job, simpler and with lower costs.

In the lounge I'd recommend a triplex plate with RF return. Two drops from the head end. One link cable to the bedroom.

In the bedroom you should fit a dual dryliner box or similar knockout box. One side populated with a 1G triplex plate. The other side with a simple RF outlet which is how you can connect Sky RF2 in to the bedroom. One cable drop from the headend + one link cable from the lounge to the bedroom.

 

[Sam Gangee]

The signal levels need to be balanced - roughly the same at every socket. The most basic method is to ensure that all the star configuration cables are approximately the same length, within a few metres.

Chris's suggestion for the RF Return would have been good except that Sky seems to be planning to do away with RF in favour of HDMI in the very near future. So an Ethernet cable might be a better bet. Or both Ethernet and coaxial, if you want to play safe. RF can be derived from a Scart output by use of a modulator but I reckon that, if the RF output is dropped, the Scart output will also go. Deriving RF from HDMI is a no no.

I recommend you familiarise yourself with The Building Regulations 2000 "Electrical Safety" (Part P 2005) or later version if there is one. Make sure you know what cables are permitted to be run alongside signal cables and what information you need to provide to the building owner immediately upon completion. As a minimum "Sufficient information shall be provided so that persons wishing to operate, maintain or alter an electrical installation can do so with reasonable safety."

 

[TheGaffersSon]

Thanks again for your reply.

We have to use the modular type as a spec of the job, because of the finish the client is after. As I said in the previous block we only had one quad plate in a flat. This was then connected to the aeriel equipment in a riser setup.

The only difference now is that as well as having to use the modular plates there is an extra aerial in the bedroom. The wholesalers who supply the gear (and also design such installations) supplied me with a plate for the sky (Sat 1 + Sat 2) plus a standard areal plate for the lounge, and a standard aerial plate for the bedroom. The idea being that the sky box would connect to Sat 1 + sat 2, plus a third lead from the sky box would connect to the aerial point, therefore giving a feed to the bedroom. It just doesn't sound right to me so hoping you can clarify this.

Doing it this way, If there is no sky box the modules aren't linked, so there's no signal in the bedroom.

Also in certain flats they have asked for a further two areal sockets, would these just be in a radial circuit? Assuming I would have to get ariel sockets with double cable terminals ?

 

[ChrisFrost]

Also in certain flats they have asked for a further two areal sockets, would these just be in a radial circuit?

NO! You don't wire aerial connections radially....ever... never.... at no time. If you do then you EFF the job up royally.

You're thinking like an electrician and not an aerial installer. That a BIG problem. In fact, it's probably the reason why you can't get your head around this, so stop it.

Look, if your wholesaler designs the system then go back to them, buy him a bacon butty and get him to walk you through this in baby steps. That's not being condescending. It's just that you need a different head on, and you need to learn from the ground up why aerial installs don't go in like ring main circuits.

 

[Sam Gangee]

This is why I tell people never to employ an electrician or a plumber to install signal cables. They invariably have no concept of how high frequency signals are carried. It's going to be a very steep learning curve. I recommend this book for starters:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-TV-...1&keywords=Digital+TV,+Satellite+&+Multimedia

 

[OwainDIYer]

The wholesalers who supply the gear (and also design such installations) supplied me with a plate for the sky (Sat 1 + Sat 2) plus a standard areal plate for the lounge, and a standard aerial plate for the bedroom. The idea being that the sky box would connect to Sat 1 + sat 2, plus a third lead from the sky box would connect to the aerial point, therefore giving a feed to the bedroom. It just doesn't sound right to me so hoping you can clarify this.

Doing it this way, If there is no sky box the modules aren't linked, so there's no signal in the bedroom.

That's right.

If that's what the ARCHITECT has specified then that's what you do.

It's a f-ing ugly skimped way of doing it though, but as long as the faceplates are nice and shiny who cares.

Out of interest, what tests will you be carrying out after installing the cables to check for any damage or defects and to ensure the system is up to specification? You do have a specification detailing signal levels and error rates at each point? Like you'd check insulation resistance and earth loop impedance on electrics?

 

[SimonH2]

Just my 2d worth - the architect who specified this is a clueless idiot who should be banned from any form of services design until he's been trained into the 21st century It's clueless ****s like this that leave occupants with a useless system that's not fit for use. I suppose it's progress though, it's not long since just a single TV outlet (invariably wired in the crappiest cable I wouldn't even use as a washing line) in the lounge was considered adequate I have family over in the US, and I recall being told that 20-30-40 years ago it was considered "normal" to expect a new property to be wired for cable and satellite etc - while we still didn't even wire for phones !

It's not like the architect has even specified the right parts for this "minimal, penny pinching" installation. The drops from the headend to the outlets should include UHF TV and FM radio (and these days DAB radio) - and to terminate these there should be a splitter plate (as already said) on one of them to split the Sat/UHF/FM/DAB to separate sockets. If you don't do this, then the use will need to plug a separate splitter in - either adding extra connections (flylead from wall to splitter), or hanging a bulky splitter off a fragile socket.

The book suggested by Sam is a good book - I bought one a few months ago when SatCure has a batch going cheap.

You're thinking like an electrician and not an aerial installer. That a BIG problem. In fact, it's probably the reason why you can't get your head around this, so stop it.

It does sound that way. Sorry to the OP, but it does really sound like you don't have the knowledge to do this properly - nor to be able to tell the architect why he's a fecking idiot. Part of my day job involves installing and/or terminating network cabling - and I can tell you that some of the worst jobs are where the sparkies pull the cable and I terminate it. The ones I've had to follow have generally been complete numpties with no idea how to treat the cable, and even less idea of what constitutes adequate labelling - imagine 100+ cables, of every length from 6 inch (ie about 6 foot too short) to dozens of yards, all in a big pile like a plate of spaghetti, and nothing with anything resembling a readable label/number of any use.


PS - and put the DAB antenna the right way up. There's a conversion near work where there's a set of aerials about 60-80 foot up and the DAB antenna is on it's side.

 

[SimonH2]

Just to add, I own a flat (built in the 90s) which is in the "one TV socket using the crappiest cheap coax" school of wiring. Unfortunately, there is no way whatsoever that I can improve on this without pulling bits of ceiling down to gain access (and even then it will include some "interesting" fishing). So far none of the tenants have asked for anything more, but I reckon that can only be a matter of time ...