Help with Light switches.

[fixie100]

Hi
I have come to the end of my tether and need help but i know its something simple that i cant work out.

i have pendant lights and two switches. both the lights go on and off with either switch. I have just put 2 new ceiling roses up and found my 'switch live' which is in the correct place on the new rose. However when i flick the switch the consumer box trips. I had a little fiddle around and found a blue wire which i disconnected from everything and now nothing trips but the lights are dim and the lights in the other rooms go on and off whn i flick the switch.

Is this blue wire a Live wire which is in the wrong slot or is it something else. i really cant get my head around it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Simon

 

[wingcoax]

piccy Piccy. Can you post a picture of the ceiling roses withe wiring in focus? It does sound as though you have wired them in series and got the loop wires wrong.

 

[fixie100]

//www.diynot.com/network/fixie100/albums/


Here are the two ceiling roses. not sure if you can see on the first pic, there is a yellow (switched live) and black wire in the same hole.
also attached a pic of one of the switches. the other switch has a red wire in the common slot and yellow and blue in L1 and L2.

basically i have got it working almost... although the switch pictured does not work anymore and the other switch has turned opposite (what was off is not on and vice versa). Hope this helps. really confusing.

cheers[/img]

 

[1john]

How have you identified whish is the switch wire?

Why have you decided against using the earth terminal on the matal switch plate?

Why have you not connected the CPC on the flex at the roses?

Why didn't you sleeve the CPC's at the roses?

 

[ajrobb]

FWIW I have a similar arrangement. One thing that could be confusing is that I have two lengths of 3+E (blue, red and yellow), one running between the roses and another running between the switches. In my case, the yellow between the roses carries the switched live (red=live, blue=neutral). The 3+E between the switches has the same colour going to each terminal. One switch ONLY has the 3+E cable. The other switch also has T+E from the rose with red (live) going to L1 and black (switched) going to L2 (although you can swap them round and it will still work). I've added the thumbnails from your album for convenience:

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• fixie100
• 24 Oct 2010
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• fixie100
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• fixie100
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Once you get it working, you could (should) put brown sleeving on the switched live (black) wire from the switch to help the next person. Electricians advise against twisting the CPCs together as it makes them fragile and they should be sleeved. I'd rather run the CPCs to the metal switch plate instead of the pattress box; but you have metal screws and at least one fixed lug so I don't think it's essential. You should consider running an additional sleeved CPC between the earth terminals of the switch plate and pattress box.

 

[Psyclist]

Erm, I could be wrong, but in the first picture it looks as if you have a neutral (black) wire terminated with the switched live (yellow).

I just read your second message again and you confirm the above.

The black is most likely connected with another neutral somewhere, so when you're switching it on, it's shorting. I can't think you would need two switched lives to the rose. Especially since you're using two way switches and the loop in method.

You need to work it out properly and sleeve the appropriate wires coz it's hard to tell which is which when they aren't identified properly although the yellow is pretty obvious.

Switch it off, get a multimeter and test the wires to find out which ones are which and mark them properly.

 

[ajrobb]

Erm, I could be wrong, but in the first picture it looks as if you have a neutral (black) wire terminated with the switched live (yellow).

In my set up, I have the same arrangement, the black should be the switched live from pictured switch (needs a brown sleeve?). The yellow takes it to the second rose.

A picture of the other switch would help.

 

[fixie100]

hi
Thanks for comments.
Just to answer a few.

I have earthed the switch but it is in the casing in the wall and you cant see it.
On the first rose i copied exactly how the previous one was wired and that worked ok. the black and yellow were together on the previous rose.

I found the switched live by using a continuity tester on the wires coming from the same cable and flicked the switch when it beeped i realised this was the switched live.

I didn't earth the wire in the flex as there is no earth socket on the actual pendant so thought it wasn't required.

i will take a pic of the 2nd switch tonight and post it....

i will try taking the yellow from the first rose and use the black as the switched live. so if the yellow is going to the next rose where would this wire go. Live, Neutral or Loop?

sorry but as you can probably tell i am not an electrician of any sort and thought i could just copy what has been fitted before and this would be a very straight forward job. i am now regretting that decision.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I have earthed the switch but it is in the casing in the wall and you cant see it.

No - you haven't earthed the switch, you've earthed the back box. The earth cores should all go to the terminal on the switch itself, and ideally you then run a short flylead from there to the box as well.

I didn't earth the wire in the flex as there is no earth socket on the actual pendant so thought it wasn't required.

It's a good idea to have the earth core in the flex connected.

sorry but as you can probably tell i am not an electrician of any sort and thought i could just copy what has been fitted before and this would be a very straight forward job.

If it worked OK before, and now it doesn't, then somewhere along the line you haven't copied what was there before...

 

[SgtTrojan]

That wiring method is baffling me. Why is there a 3c&E at each ceiling rose? Is there are fan or security light fed from there too? Also the second Ceiling rose has a 2c&E. Odd.

If one of those 3c&E goes to the switch then the blue conductor is the one causing the "short" but then I can't see why it would be wired like that. But then it is more likely that the 3c&E at the switch goes to the other 2way switch. In which case it could be the black on the second rose that is connected to neutral (causing a short as it is a switched live).

This is why all non-live colours should be sleeved as live!! Grrr

i have pendant lights and two switches. both the lights go on and off with either switch

So do both lights operate together from either switch? IE 2 way?

 

[fixie100]

yes both lights operate from either switch..

there is no fan or anything attached....just 2 lights and 2 switches...

 

[SgtTrojan]

On the second ceiling rose, where does the 2c&E (red and black) go to?

 

[ajrobb]

That wiring method is baffling me. Why is there a 3c&E at each ceiling rose? Is there are fan or security light fed from there too? Also the second Ceiling rose has a 2c&E. Odd.

I probably have a similar layout:
Lighting radial T+E comes into first rose. There is 3+E between the roses, yellow=switched, red=line, blue=neutral. There is T+E from the second rose to continue the radial. There is another T+E from the second rose to the first switch (red=line=L1, black=switched=L2). There is 3+E between the switches (red=L1, blue=L2, yellow=C on both switches).

 

[1john]

Your two black cables must be the worng way around, you must have connected the seitch across live and neutral.

 

[Psyclist]

Ok this has taken a few wiring diagrams but I think I'm starting to get the picture.

Basically you have a 2&E from the CU to the first rose and from the first rose to your first switch (pictured).

You have 3&E from switch 1 to switch 2 (not pictured but described and wired correctly), and you have a 3&E between the two ceiling roses which is supposed to be carrying a permanent live to the second loop block to take a live off for other lights in other rooms or vice versa this could be coming from the CU and the aforementioned 2&E could be going to the CU.

The fact that when you are switching, the lights in the other rooms are going on and off suggests that you've somehow managed to swap the switched live with a carried live to the other rooms.

But why are they dim? And what is the loose blue wire that you have disconnected?

God knows, I'm going to bed. Struggling without being there to test the wires. Sorry chaps. I can't be far off.