Help with reclaimed floor gone wrong!!

[Cluelessnorb]

We've recently had a part one-storey, part two-storey extension to the rear of our 1930s home comprising a kitchen/diner and 4th bedroom upstairs. Keen to be ecologically savvy we decided to go for reclaimed pine boards in the kitchen/diner that would match in with the original 1930s boards. The area that's been boarded with new boards is about 28m2.

Our builder advised us that we would need to have a suspended/floating floor as reclaimed boards cannot be laid over concrete. As our original quote was for a concrete floor (and then we would lay flooring on top) our builder said that his joiner could lay the floor as part of the original quote as fitting joists etc costs much less than the cost of concrete.

We sourced boards ourselves from a reputable timber yard; they advised us that the boards had been kept in heated storage and would need to be kept indoors - which they were. The boards were originally floor joists from a pub in Manchester which were then milled down to our specific size and t&g'd. The timber yard also gave advice about laying them, eg secret nailing, screwing every so often, strapping the boards during laying.

The boards were laid by our builder's joiner who also fitted the joists on top of the concrete screed/dpm. He used a hammer/mallet thing, not sure what a secret nailer looks like!! And wasn't too keen on screwing as suggested.

We then had the entire downstairs sanded and stained a 'Jacobean Dark Oak' colour by a local specialist. It was all then varnished with a satin Junkers product.

This was in June. Over the last few months, particularly since the weather became cooler an heating started to be used, we've noticed some of the boards appear to be separating! We can see the pale pine colour of the t&g sections in about 10 places in thr kitchen/diner. A few boards have also split and a number are really creaking!! Food is getting caught in the gaps which is driving us bonkers and we are getting socks snagged in thr places where the boards have separated! Some of the boards also seem to 'bounce' ie they don't seem secured down properly.

Before we start contacting people (builder, timber yard etc) we just wanted some expert advice on what the main problem is here! Is it the wood? The fitting? The sub-floor? Or maybe a combination of factors? Also what can be done to fix it? The gaps are big enough to fit your finger between in places. The other issue is that our entire kitchen has been fitted on top of the boards and we have bifolding doors that the floor fits exactly up to!

Aaargh! We've spent a fortune on the work and are at our wits end with how it looks at the moment! It doesn't look like it will last 1 year let alone 10!! Any advice would be greatly received. Thanks in advance.

 

[stevethejoiner]

Oh dear, I feel so sorry for you.

The wood obviously had a too high moisture content when fitted and screwing down rather than secret nailing would not have solved your problem.
When you purchased the floor board material it's moisture content wanted to be no more than about 8% which is not really possible without drying either in a kiln or specially designed area with heat. I would not have trusted a supplier that the wood was stored in a heated place and was suitable to install. Ideally you should have had a moisture meter to check the material upon delivery and rejected it if it had measured more than 8%.

Now it comes down to who is responsible for the problem. Unfortunately as you say you sourced the flooring you cannot blame your builder for that.
You also say floor joists have been fitted on top of the screed and dpm so it sounds as though the design was originally not for a suspended floor SO HAS THE BUILDER VENTED THE VOID BETWEEN THE SCREED AND TIMBER BOARDS? If not you may have some recourse.

I would have fixed 50 x 50 batten at 450 centres down to the screed and in filled with additional 50mm rigid insulation, then dovetail nailed the boarding down through the face with traditional floor brads so as to make a feature of the fixings.

If your builder/carpenter cannot resolve the issue, or without replacing the entire floor, the only remedial action I can suggest, which is not ideal, is as follows: As long as the boards have shrunk back completely you can cut/scribe slithers of wood to insert and glue into the gaps between the boards. I have done this several times over the years for private customers and commercial premises with gappy boards. It looks ok, and you will not notice it when the wood has aged and have a natural patina.

 

[AronSearle]

Finger sized gaps = 10mm?

For such gaps to appear, you either have ludicrously wide boards, they were sopping wet, or more likely cumulative movement.

If a 150mm wide board goes from 20% down to 10%, you will get 2.5% shrinkage on the width of the board or <4mm. It seems very unlikely given the information you provide that they were 20%, more likely 10% or max 14%, only giving you a few mm's shrinkage per board max. If you stored them inside for more than a week, then even if they were 20% on supply, they would have dried a bit.

Of course if you went for say 300mm wide boards, you can double the above figures, but that still leaves you quite shy of finger size gap shrinkage.

Were the T&G boards glued together (this should NOT be done unless it is a floating floor). If they were then this would be the cause of the issue, instead of each board moving a mm or so*, you will get several boards stuck together moving as one, causing accumulative movement across several boards, and then large gaps appearing say every 5-10 boards.



*If you install the boards at 10%ish, they will at most move by 1.5mm in either direction between summer/winter. This is why I recommend boards are not cramped when fitted, but left with a 0.5mm gap within the T&G (card spacer).



Also......


knowing the board widths would help.

Knowing the moisture content of the boards now (you can get a cheap nasty timber moisture meter for about 30 squid).

and Pics or it didn't happen

 

[Cluelessnorb]

I will try and post pictures at the weekend as am away at the moment.

Thank you so much for your help!

 

[Cluelessnorb]

Right! It's taken me a while to work out how to upload images, I think I have done it by creating a folder entitled 'floor.'

In answer to the various questions:
- my builder has vented the space underneath the floor by inserting air bricks in the external wall (this was as per advice from the building inspector)
- the cavity underneath the floor contains the joists, services (heating etc) and insulation
- the boards are 5 1/4 inches wide

This image shows the boards at a finger width wide. The gaps are catching all the 'muck' which is an unavoidable evil in the kitchen/diner and even more so with two young children!
View media item 41125
This image shows the 'white' lines in the otherwise lovely coloured floor
View media item 41126
More white lines
View media item 41128
This shows a knot which had been filled with wood filler prior to staining/sanding. It shows how much this board has moved.
View media item 41129
Thanks already for the advice you have given. Any further advice upon seeing the pictures would be most appreciated. We basically want to know what we can do to rectify the problem as shown in the pictures. There are three boards that have also split down the middle. One of these is creating an awful squeak whenever we walk within a metre of it!!

Aaaarrggghh!!

 

[AronSearle]

View media item 41125
How specifically are the boards laid and fixed.

In this picture I can see a nail to the face of one board, but no fixings to the adjacent board with no gap.

Did they put glue in the T&G, it looks like there is some muck in there that "could" be glue, or just dirt (sometimes the floor finish can get into the gap and act as a weak bond)?

What is interesting is that there is a large shrinkage gap in one board, but almost no gap in the board adjacent to it, which does again make me think the T&G has been glued.

As said, gluing the T&G is only suitable for floating floors, for floors also nailed to joists it would be inappropriate as it would cause rafting (several boards moving as one and then large gaps appearing).

There are three boards that have also split down the middle. !

Do the splits go through the board, or are they just surface fissures.

The latter would indicate high moisture content on installation, the former rafting.

Lastly it depends how they have been fixed down, as to how practical it is to lift and re-lay them.

 

[Cluelessnorb]

The boards were fixed with secret nails or nails through the tongue and groove bit of the board before the next board was slotted into place. Very few of them have nails through the face of the boards, as in the picture. I'm not sure a secret nailer was used as I don't know what this looks like!

There was no glue used, the "muck" is the floor finish - which is varnish.

The boards that have split have split right through so you can almost see through to the cavity underneath.

You're right, some boards do not seem to have moved at all whilst others have moved considerably! Would this have occurred if the wood came from separate batches/places?

Thanks so much for your help. Any suggestion as to how this could be sorted out would be most welcome!

 

[AronSearle]

Very few of them have nails through the face of the boards, as in the picture.

Bit odd, why do any of them have face fixings?

I'm not sure a secret nailer was used as I don't know what this looks like!

You can hand hammer in secret nails, a secret nail gun just makes it a lot easier, there are all manner of type of guns.

which is varnish.

That may be the issue, the varnish can rarely act as a bonding agent, it may have seeped into the T&G and bonded the boards together, causing rafting.

The boards that have split have split right through so you can almost see through to the cavity underneath.

Think of it like this, if a board is nailed on one side, and only slotted into the board on the other, there is nothing restricting it's movement.

If it has split right through, this suggests that as it has shrunk both sides were held firm, and so it has split. the movement is exaggerated when several boards are bonded together, so you may have 5 boards each shrinking by 1-2mm, but as they are stuck together you now have 5-10mm of movement, so the weakest point is were the gap appears, and that is sometimes the middle of a board = split.

Varnish can bond the boards together, but it is rare that it provides that strong a bond.



For remedial action you will need to lift and re-lay the boards, but if they are stuck together it will be hard to do so without some damage and wastage, you might run a knife blade or similar down the joints to help break the bond.

Possibly you can run the blade down the boards to break the joint, and then try and cramp the boards back into position, I'm not really convinced that will work though.
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[HMCFlooring]

Can you find out what products were used by the floor re-finishers (each stage, so stain then lacquer)?

Wood floors naturally expand and contract with the changes of humidity levels in the house. In summer the humidity is high and the wood will naturally expand, when the heating is turned on in autumn the humidity levels in the house drop as a dry heat sauce is introduced wood shrinks, exactly as you have posted.

The shrinkage is spread around all of the gaps in the floor they would all be even and small. From your pictures it is clear that the wood has rafted (the boards have been glued together) and the gaps that appear are large then non existent where the boards are bonded.

Junkers make several products the strongest being the 2 pack lacquers, if these are used with out a recommended primer then the lacquer can cause the above mentioned rafting. The lacquer is strong enough to act as a wood glue a junkers rep' has told me he uses them in such a way.

As i said, ask the re-finisher what system he used exactly so you can use the same on internal doors (slight lie). Then post exactly what he has used. It may sound harsh but from what i have read the large gaps are down to him and he should sort it out.

But also the reclaimed timber may not be manufactured to the same moisture content as new but we will never know, but with out the rafting you would be more than happy with your floor, i'm sure.

http://hmcflooring.com/products/distressed-oak-flooring/