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Hey there newbie needing help with Hive thermostat

Discussion in 'Plumbing and Central Heating' started by Scottishjohn, 21 Nov 2019.

  1. Scottishjohn

    Scottishjohn

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    Ok so im planning on buying a hive set as its on sale just now, i just want to make sure my boiler is compatible.
    My current thermostat sits on my wall its a british gas rs2, am i correct in saying this will be removed for the hive thermostat and thats all i will need done and nothing else added or removed?
    My bolier is a euorpa 224 it heats my hot water and central heating, ive got a electric shower incase that helps with the setup as im clueless!
     

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  3. stem

    stem

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    A thermostat is just a switch, it turns the heating 'on' and 'off' and that's all it does. That's what the RS2 does and it is what Hive also does. So, Hive is a suitable replacement for it.

    However, just as important is the system that the boiler is connected to. Otherwise you could end up with the wrong version of the Hive. You will find on here numerous individuals lamenting that they have bought the wrong version, and desperately trying to find a fix.

    1) The single channel version is for combi boilers that heat hot water instantaneously on demand when a tap is opened, and are not connected to a hot water cylinder. This version of Hive controls central heating only. The single channel Hive has a voltage free contact that can be used with combi boilers regardless of the control voltage they use. For example some may use 230V for their control circuits others 24v. With this voltage free verson of Hive, it doesn't matter.

    2) The dual channel version is for heat only boilers that are also connected to a hot water cylinder. As the name suggests it provides separate time control for the heating and hot water. This version is only available in 230V

    So:
    A combi boiler without a hot water cylinder = Single Channel Hive
    A system that includes control of heating a hot water cylinder = Dual Channel Hive

    Probably better to get professional installation as well then.;)
     
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  4. ericmark

    ericmark

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    Looking at the instructions is seems the boiler has it's own anti hysteresis software which is matched to the thermostat, so you will need to read carefully to see if Hive is going to work, it does seem it uses extra low voltage control so duel channel Hive will not work.

    The whole idea of the modern "Smart" thermostat is to work out at what point to turn down (ebus type) or switch off (on/off type like Hive) to allow for the heat retained in the radiators so it does not over shoot and cause a hysteresis curve where the temperature is in a sine wave as it over and under shoots the selected temperature.

    The modern gas boiler is designed to modulate, that is turn down to output, rather than simply switch off/on, and is designed to work with thermostatic radiator valves (TRV) so either the return water temperature or connection to ebus matches boiler output to demand, this will reduce the hysteresis to a very low valve. However there is a problem using water temperature in that unless boiler is running it can't sense if required, so without some thing extra it will cycle all summer, so we want some thing to turn it off when weather is good.

    So the wall thermostat is used to switch off boiler in warm weather, but if set to turn off boiler in cool or cold weather it can upset the boilers own control using return water, so boiler does not modulate as it should and so uses more fuel than it should.

    Hive have a system not seen used with any other wall thermostat, it uses "heat on demand" so the temperature set on the wall thermostat does not really matter as long as lower than temperature required, as the Hive TRV heads tell the wall thermostat to switch on boiler if not satisfied, so the Hive TRV heads keep the boiler fired up when required.

    However this clearly only works if you have replaced as least some TRV heads with the Hive programmable ones.

    As with every system it sounds great, but not a clue if Hive actually works, I have Nest, not quite the same system, well the reverse the Nest wall thermostat should tell the TRV what setting to use with a follow command, which I found does not work, I have to set the TRV manually at the same schedule as wall thermostat, however not seen anyone else complaining, so either I am unlucky, or others are not using Energenie TRV heads with Nest but hope it will work without, and since Nest will connect to boiler ebus with gas boilers likely it does, but I am using oil so boiler does not modulate.

    If some one asked me to fit a modern control I would go for EvoHome as it's been out a long time and it is known to work, Tado may work, but they will not release info, Hive may work but the TRV head was only added in 2019 to make the system comply with new rules, and Nest may bring out their own TRV heads soon rather than use Energenie, but I can't be sure the others work, but EvoHome has been out for a long time, OK if using OpenTherm it needs an add on module when built into Nest.

    I would love to see some one report on fitting Hive TRV heads as to if they actually do what it says on the packet, seen report of problems getting them to pair with the wall thermostat, but this could be that wall thermostat was too old to work with the new TRV heads. If you do fit it, please tell us all how it goes.

    My Nest system (on oil boiler not modulating) does work well, however I have wasted money on the Energenie TRV heads, the much cheaper eQ-3 bluetooth programmable heads work just as well and much cheaper at £15 each rather than £45 each, and that's the rub, do you use cheap programmable heads or expensive ones the latter which ties you to one make of wall thermostat? I have 4 Energenie and 5 eQ-3 and to be frank the eQ-3 work better for me, pressing one button to swap eco to comfort works well for me, I don't need the geofencing which the Energenie does have.
     
  5. stem

    stem

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    The Hive Single Channel is the same as the OP's existing BG RS2...

    RS2.JPG

    ...Electrically speaking they are both a simple on/off switch, and provide exactly the same control. Central heating 'on' or Central heating 'off' and that's it. If the RS2 works OK, so will the Hive.
     
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  7. ericmark

    ericmark

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    Last house had a Honeywell Y6630D thermostat which is quite a good wireless thermostat with fail safe and anti hysteresis software, but it was not suitable for the Bosch boiler fitted as that anti hysteresis software stopped the boiler modulating as it should, the simple thermostat you show would have actually worked better.

    Just because some central heating company has installed a system does not mean the parts have been matched and work together in the best way, they may work, and that Honeywell thermostat worked and in this house with a oil fired boiler which does not modulate likely ideal.

    To my mind two very different reasons for fitting a thermostat.
    1) Control the temperature.
    2) Stop the boiler cycling.
    So in the living room the thermostat likely is there to control the temperature of that room, in the hall likely to stop the boiler cycling.

    In an ideal world every room is independently controlled and the requirements sent to a central hub/thermostat which in turn tells the boiler when to run, but we are not living in an ideal world, linked TRV heads are expensive, so often people try to control the whole house with a single thermostat, but rules have resulted in new builds needing a system that can detect weather conditions and heat areas independently, doubling up on the system can really mess it all up.

    Had the post said I have bought Hive, then your answer is spot on as usual, however it says
    so not already bought, so need to make the poster aware the Hive system is not just the wall thermostat, for it to work well, it needs the Hive TRV as these then allow the boilers own system to modulate the output as required, this works out expensive, EvoHome for 6 rooms £387, Hive £324 for heads plus cost of wall thermostat so in all around £424 so more expensive than Evohome assuming both use 6 TRV heads.

    Of course you may not need 6 heads, and with Hive you can add the heads one by one, but I got it wrong, I got Energenie TRV heads with the whole idea of latter adding Nest, it said they would work together, some times they do, but seems to be hit and miss, so I have expensive TRV heads at £45 each where cheap heads at £15 each would do same job for me.

    I accept you @stem have far more experience than me, so maybe you can say if Hive TRV heads actually do work with Hive wall thermostats like the adverts say they do?
     
  8. Scottishjohn

    Scottishjohn

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    Thanks for all the replys guy!
    Ive got alot of reading today this morning lol.
    By after having a quick skim it seems i should be ok.
    Im only wanting it for the purpose of turning the heating on while im out.
    I have no problem with trv heads as im not there yet but maybe one day lol.
     
  9. Scottishjohn

    Scottishjohn

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    If anyone wants to get the same hive deal i got give me a pm i have a code that gets £40 off hive spends :)
     

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  10. stem

    stem

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    My qualifications are electrical and I understand how wires go together and make circuits. I readily admit, being trained in the 1980's that the hysteresis / software / firmware / etc., is a complete mystery to me and generally if on the odd occasion I install a Hive / Nest etc., I don't (although I could) install the apps and commission the thermostat I let the householder do that, or if it's a new installation whomever installs and commissions the system. The plumbing knowledge I have is as a result of helping my plumber father & a couple of RGI mates that asked me to help them out with installations when their usual sparkies got stuck, so no professional in that regard.

    Sorry, no experience of Hive TRV's. And to be honest never heard of them :whistle: but the OP didn't mention using them, or the Hive 'System' AFAIK he just wants a Hive thermostat.
     
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