Home extension & the 45 degree code.

[chris2922]

I tried to design a rear extension to my home that stayed within Permitted Development rules to avoid planning permission, but because of the rear building line i have to work with this isnt possible. My home extension will require planning permission because it is 5 meters from the rear building line on one side. It was only 3 meters on the other side originally while i tried to work wikth Permitted Development, but its slightly more now.

This is where the 45 degree code comes in. My local authority have informed me that they "stongly enforce" the code, and no infingements are allowed. This has made the extension very difficult to design.

What i would like to know is - can i build angled external walls and go along the 45 degree lines? If i can then the design shown in my pictures is possible isnt it?

First i have drawn on google maps image to show the extents of my property (purple) the 45 degree lines (yellow) and the extension (blue).
The extension includes my garage that runs down the side, because i intend to demolish it and rebuild it to the same specs. The 'new' part of the extension starts after the garage.

View media item 26559
Next i have screen printed my autocad design for the extension that has accurate lines rather than crudely drawn ones.

View media item 26560

Is this cheating? Or is it allowed?

 

[^woody^]

You can splay the walls, but then the design may not be acceptable to planners in terms of it looking out of place. It depends on what it looks like.

Remember that the 45 degree line is taken from habitable rooms only, so if one of those lines is from a kitchen, then that does not count

 

[chris2922]

I live in Dudley, and their 'Planning Guidance No: 12 - The 45 Degree Code' document says this:

"To comply with the 45 degree code, extensions should be designed so as not to cross the appropriate 45 degree line from an adjoining neaighbours nearest window which lights a habitable room or kitchen."

The house on the garage side (top of the image) is a kitchen window, and I was hoping kitchen weren't included in this rule/code - but they are.

http://www2.dudley.gov.uk/documents/planning-guidance/PlanningGuidanceNote12.pdf

 

[^woody^]

Looks like you're stuffed then, as that guide also mentions that "Angled walls are normally only acceptable when they form an essential part of an overall design"

 

[DevilDamo]

You're aware the 45 degree rule only "really" comes into play if you're proposing a two-storey extension?

In the past, I have incorporated splayed walls into my design for some flats, which sailed through the planning approval process.

On other (two-storey extension) jobs in the past, I have taken the ground floor out to (x) metres and then I have stepped back the first floor to take into account the 45 degree rule. Just means you'll have beam(s) within the first floor to take the new external wall at first floor and the single storey roof will be a lean-to onto the new wall at first floor level, e.g.

 

[^woody^]

You're aware the 45 degree rule only "really" comes into play if you're proposing a two-storey extension?

No, around these parts its ground floors which are the issue.

We used to be able to wangle something under PD under the old rules by building the contentious bit under PD and then when the walls were up, apply for the rest of it. But the new PD rules have largely put a stop to that

 

[chris2922]

Seems like the 45 degree rule in Dudley is going to prevent me from building the extension i had hoped for. If only my garage was in line with the rest of the properties rear building line i might be able to get away with permitted development, but as its over a meter in, i cant.

I shall still submit the plan in the hope that the planning dept. let me get away with angled walls.

Is it just down to the luck of the draw with these people? Get someone in a good mood and the extension is accepted, get one in a bad mood and its rejected?

 

[^woody^]

Is it just down to the luck of the draw with these people?

You got it in one.

Most seem to use a Magic 8 Ball for the decision process.

You can try your damndest to get a poxy lean-to through on the back of a house seen by no-one, and its one obstacle after another. And then all of a sudden an extension pops up down the road, and this will be twice as big as the house it is attached to and contravenes every guideline published, and yet there it remains.

Strictly though, your extension should conform to their guidelines otherwise it will be rejected. If it is down to subjective opinion of the planner (ie no explicit policy guide) then its down to how much she enjoyed the previous night and what mood she's in

Like the Murphys, I'm not bitter

 

[jeds]

Whenever I have ever had to check the 45° rule it has always been coupled with a 25° vertical rule for two storeys. In other words a single storey extension would be ok if it broke the 45° rule providing it did not also break the 25° rule.

 

[^woody^]

The rule is based on BRE guidance, and various councils interpret it differently

Some don't even have the rule as policy, but as soon as the proposed work breaches it, they use a suitable interpretation of it as a "reference", and reason for refusal

 

[DevilDamo]

Why not just go in for the extension you want and see what they come back with? You never know... they may look at and take a view it's acceptable. I deal with two authorities more than others. One adopts the 45 degree rule but the other doesn't. It just takes a view on the affect on the neighbouring property/ies. It's best to go in for more than less. In some situations, the LA may even ask you to slightly amend the design prior to a decision being issued, which may result in the splayed walls being introduced.

Have you had any pre-application advice or do they not offer it on householder extensions?

 

[chris2922]

I havent actually submitted anything to the planning dept yet. I was worried that submitting something that breaks lots of codes might put me in a bad position with the planners. Perhaps im being paranoid, but once one of them puts a black mark against your plan i expect it is harder to get it removed than it is to not break the codes in the first place?

So far i have just visited the office and had a chat with the duty planning officer. It was her who told me about the 45 degree code. She was otherwise very unhelpful though.

Please have a look at this drawing. This is actually what i am trying to go for. The room sizes cannot really be any smaller that this. In this drawing i have disregarded the 45 degree code, but shown the lines.

Do you think this is worth submitting?

My design higher up in my first post was an attempt to comply with the 45 degree code without losing the floor space i need in the two bigger rooms.

View media item 26615

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Have you had any pre-application advice or do they not offer it on householder extensions?

If they offer it for domestic stuff in your area then this is the recommended route. Depends on the LA tbh but most do. You have to pay a small fee but is better than just getting a refusal of the Planning Application.

 

[^woody^]

If the application breaches the local policy then it wont be acceptable and if left must be refused by the planners

If you put in an application which is not acceptable then you get the chance to either amend it to conform, or withdraw it and resubmit an amended scheme - which will be free if done with 12 months

You wont get any "black mark" or be treated any differently by putting in an unacceptable application.

What ever you submit, make sure to phone them up in the 5th week to see how things are going and if changes are required before the deadline

You may also want to submit a design statement so that the planners can see your train of thought, and how the scheme will work and fit in with the surroundings.

 

[DevilDamo]

I was worried that submitting something that breaks lots of codes might put me in a bad position with the planners.

When dealing with the planning department, all applicants are guilty until proven innocent Depening on the scale of the proposal, the majority would prefer you speak to them first before going in for an application. Some LA's charge for this advice, when others do not. If it's free advice, then the advice will be limited as... they're not getting paid for it.

Do you think this is worth submitting?

If I was a planning officer and that was my job, I wouldn't be bothered that bothered about the 45 degree rule as it doesn't oversail the lines dramatically... does it. However, that may be why I am not a planner As mentioned before, try and go in for pre-application advice, even if it's sitting down with a planning officer or having something formal. However, when you are going to submit any plans... for pre-application advice or as part of a planning application, remove the 45 degree lines By all means indicate the neighbouring windows but don't physically indicate the lines in which your proposal will be exceeding beyond.