Hot Water ignite/switch off pattern - is this normal?

[t45]

Thank you Blagard,
It is an old Kingfisher –Potterton –
Is there a way in which I can tell if the pump is running when HW only is selected – I am only using my ears and listening to the sounds – should I be looking for things like pump movement etc etc
I think there is a valve in the boiler – square, floor mounted thing in cupboard – i’ve taken the front off and it looks like there is a valve and as Ii mentioned to Ian above, it looks more like a3 way port rather than 2 but I have no idea what the Y plan is either.....
I have only moved into the property so have no history of the boiler expect to know that it is old and conventional.......
At this stage I am hoping a repair will do the trick as opposed to a new system as i did not really anticipate having a new system installed having just moved in! Also, tit works – it hasn’t actually broken down – there is just this timing patter cycle that seems to be unusual. We have Ch and HW but it is the HW that, although heats up, runs in an alternate pattern as mentioned – the problem definitely seems to be connected to the HW – Ive tried turning up the stat to 3 or 4 and that didn’t work either – initially it was on 2, the max is 5 I think but i don’t think changing this helps at all – merely makes the water hotter
Thank you for your ideas

 

[Blagard]

Thank you Ian,
I’m not too sure what type of valve but I am guessing it is a 3 way and i only have one....do you think the valve could needs to be replaced and would this possible help?.....

There is no need to change a valve at this point. A 3 port valve is just that so no guessing required. Examples are:

http://www.screwfix.com/p/honeywell-v4073a-3-port-motorised-valve/31421

http://www.screwfix.com/p/drayton-ma1-679-3-3-port-motorised-valve/81844

So does your valve look something like those linked? If so your system would be fully pumped, and so that would eliminate that as one possible improvement.

A two port valve looks like:

http://www.screwfix.com/p/honeywell-v4043h-2-port-motorised-valve/31480


A Y plan is simply a fully pumped system with a 3 port motorised valve, a room thermostat and a cylinder thermostat. An improvement on any gravity system.

No need to check for pump running if your valve is 3 port.

Edit:
Does your cylinder have a cylinder thermostat strapped to the side of it? If not it could be your boilers call for HW is not being stopped once the cylinder water is hot enough.

 

[t45]

Thank you Ian and Blagard,

To update you on my situation:

I have called out a plumber and the system that I have is very old and needs updating.

I am looking at an entirely new system – it is a very old kingfisher and even the flue has asbestos in –so this gives an idea of the date!

Definately around the 1970s.

The plumber seemed to think that the problem was with the cylinder and not the boiler afterall.

So...i am currently getting quotes for a new boiler system – some are very high...any recommendations would be most appreciated.

The issue that I have is that my flat is a top floor and apparently there could be a problem with the piping that goes from the bottom (where my mains are located outside) on the property up to me...that the pipes may or may not be wide enough for a combi boiler! i.e they may be narrow by the time they reach me and also with the twists and turns in the piping from ground level up, there may be a risk that the gas might not be enough to fuel combi......

So now another bit of troubleshooting for me!

I really don’t want to have an upgrade with another cylinder and boiler – I think a combi is better in that it will free up both cupboard and loft space and although they use more gas (I am led to believe) they are better.

Ive had a few quotes and some have said a combi is possible but there is a risk with the piping as I am quite high up and a combi requires more gas than a conventional – and some have said no to a combi and that I should just upgrade as they can’t be sure about the piping! So still a bit unsure here.

What I do know ifs that I do need a new system though and the asbestos flu must be removed.

So a new system will need to be installed but which I have not idea!

Also, the costs vary so much. Ive contacted a number of companies for quotes including BG and some independent companies.

Is it best to get this all done by one company/person, including having the flue cleared, or is it best to use different people, ie a local plumber, a person who will remove asbestos etc etc...I am also expecting scaffold costs!.....

Just to keep things busy, I ma also trying to locate the gas pipe under the floor in my kitchen so that we have an idea of the size of it in terms of feeding a combi – i believe it needs to be a certain thickness – the start of the pipe at ground level is very thick and would accommodate the gas but I believe the pipes may be narrower the higher up in the building...i could be wrong though. One company said that they could install a combi but there would be a risk with the external piping so there would be no guarantee it would work – i really wouldn’t want to spend and then when it comes to the connecting find that it doesn’t work! That would be awful.

Thank you for your advice and helping me trouble shoot this problem for me. I believe the boiler is so old that they may not even make parts for it anymore!

 

[kbdiy]

I'm just puzzling over why you think you have a problem in the first place. Looking at the pattern of on/off ignition timings and given the fact that you seem to have all the hot water and heating you require (although I can't see any reference to this in your posts) then to my eyes it seems to be working properly. Just because it's old doesn't necessarily mean you need to condemn it. At least not until it fails to provide the required outputs.

Granted a new boiler may well be cheaper to run but you ought to consider the return on investment before ripping it all out.

 

[t45]

Thank you,

We felt the same initially as we have only moved into the property a few months ago – it was the timings that threw us so we called out a BG engineer who condemned the old boiler and said it needs updating! Before this place, we were used to combi boiler so all of the conventional boilers and cylinder seemed very out of date and we have no experience of them – hence to us the timings seemed very peculiar so we started to trouble shoot and now in addition to a BG engineer we’ve had other plumbers to quote and they all say upgrade – some say a combi boiler and some say no, but yes, we didn’t anticipate having to install a new boiler within a few months of moving in! Most of the plumbers and engineers are sighing heavy woe when they look at the old boiler and when they say the flue they are like well it is so old...we haven’t really budgeted for a new system and so this is all a bit of a shock but we just don’t know which way to go as each engineer has said that it needs to be replaced – and yes, it has not broken down, it still works, we get heating and hot water!

We would like a new system eventually but ideally not now! And now it seems there are other issues in terms of which boiler to get, combi or conventional and then there are issues about there not being enough gas to reach the property, possible problems with piping – it goes on and on and I just don’t want to be taken for a ride.

We have been told by BG and another that ‘it won’t be cheap’!!!!!

I would like to leave it the way it is but now that people have said this and that it has thrown up lots of thought and also anxiety especially regarding the asbestos – so we started with what we thought was a boiler issue and now we have issues about asbestsos, flushing the system, getting scaffold up to do the flu (and we have been told this will add considerable costs onto the overall quote), locating gas pipe to see the size so that it can carry enough gas....and then possible lifestyle changes to go from gas fed cooker to electric and also getting an electric shower!

So it has been a very crazy Christmas and New Year and a very steep learning curve.

Yes, eventually the system would probably need sot be updated as is the case with most things, but surely if a boiler is doing it’s job providing heat and water this is good.

Question is: are these alternate pattern/timings (please see above posts) normal to an old Potterton Kingfisher boiler and copper cylinder?

 

[Agile]

I don't see why you are bothered either!

Your system is acting exactly as expected given its design and age.

It will probably work for another 10-20 years too.

Someone like you are an installer's dream! Someone willing to spend money when you don't have to!

Your system is old, not terribly efficient either.

But as a flat, the savings from a new system will only be about 20% and unlikely to justify the cost of a new system on financial grounds!

Tony

 

[t45]

Hi Tony,
I have to agree with you – I am an installer’s dream in many ways! Especially as I don’t know too much about these things (thankfully we have forums like this and they are great for troubleshooting).
I do think you have hit the nail on the head though that the system is acting the way it is as is expected of its design and age. An old Kingfisher Potterton will not run lik eth enew systems but I guess they have had more longevity than the new systems. Im no expert but something that runs for over 15 years and onwards to over 20, cylinder and boiler, is actually testimony to the mechanical skills of those who made them
I don’t want to frog leap forwards and pay a lot of money for a new system when the one we have, although old and not super efficient, could have a lot left in it and it does work, and yes, I agree about the cost of a new system. We have been pre-empted by BG engineers of the potential costs and also another company and we are talking a lot of money.
The only thing that really concerns me now, more than the boiler, is the mention of the asbestos flue – I am happy to hold out with this old system for as long as possible (that seems to have been very reliable over the years – the fact that it is still going! – it was only the comments made by BG that propelled us to look into new boilers and costs etc but this seemed to have opened a whole new can of worms – the issues with piping, locating the gas pipe in the kitchen, the size of the pipes, the journey/routeway of the pipes from ground level up etc etc whether we can actually have a combi as opposed to a conventional)...i don’t know how many of the engineers i actually wholly believe now as for them it is business, and of course I understand this, but if a new system is not needed then one is not needed.
Ideally I would hold out until the end of the year and then revisit this in Autumn time but it is the mention of asbestos, health and safety that now concerns me so I feel pressurised into getting a new system more for the removal of asbestos more than anything else.
We’ve not been in the property long and we did not anticipate the boiler issue and certainly not the related costs that now encompass things like scaffold, asbestos/flu removal, piping, and even relocating our electrical consumer box! So it’s now led to other things that we certainly not on the cards!
Thank you for your comments – they makes absolute sense, and you have made me sit back and take stock a bit – be a bit sensible and figure out the necessity of this. Thank you!

 

[kbdiy]

Nothing wrong with the asbestos flue as long as it isn't damaged or disturbed - at which point it does become dangerous - otherwise it can stay in place for years without any issues. People are too quick to jump on the H&S bandwagon at the first mention of asbestos.

Leave it alone and it will be fine.

 

[t45]

Thank you, the asbestos flue has not been damaged or tampered with – agree ref the H&S bandwagon – I think for the time being I will stick with the old boiler, old and inefficient but actually working! And when I look at some of the quotes to change to a pressurized combi system, it makes me think, old or not, it works and has life left – is a quote over 5k for this type of work reasonable? And this is without Vat and some extras – I have no idea how much these new systems costs but when I get quotes of this amount it makes me think of who is profiting! I mean what is exactly involved apart from buying the actual boiler and fitting it – getting rid of the asbestos flu, flushing the system, removing existing boiler and cylinder etc converting the new system…and this is the cost without the scaffold costs!

 

[t45]

I have been quoted £4,765 + VAT (this is a discounted price) for the installation of a

Worcester-Bosch Greenstar* 25 is Compact combination condensing boiler.

Any thoughts on whether this is about right?

My property is small 2 bedroom flat with 6 radiators.

Content of work would be:

Converting existing system to pressurised combi system
Remove & dispose of existing boiler, cylinder, cold water storage tanks
Locate new boiler on the wall, as high as possible above the existing appliance
Condense to be pumped to the loft, out through the roof, and connect to the soil stack
Carry out a full system power cleanse using a KAMCO CF90 Clearflow pump
Notify new appliances with the Gas Safe Register and the relevant Local Authority

Parts, materials & heating controls are:
System cleansers and inhibitors
Electrolytic scale reducer
Vertical flue kit + elbows, brackets and extensions
Flashing kit
Integral filling loop
DT10RF wireless programmable room thermostat
3 amp fused spur + box
Junction box 6 way
Condensate trace heater kit
Condense pump
Freezer kit


This all comes with a 7 year free extended manufacturer’s warranty covering parts and labour for all boiler breakdowns or malfunctions

I have been quoted a discounted price – actual price is just over 5k.

And this does not include the removal and disposal of flue nor the cost of effecting scaffold to access roof.

Any ideas on whether this is a decent/reasonable quote – to me it seems a lot – and this is not a BG quote which I believe tend to be on the higher side.


Thank you!

 

[Terry lambert]

With out seeing it, it would be hard to say.

What I can say is that I have done a lot of installations, and never had a convert to combi come to anywhere near that.

I would suggest you get at least three quotes and that will give you a fuller picture, rather than someone trying to double guess it on a forum.