How can light feature to be powered by Landing AND Hall occupancy sensors?

[DaveFix]

I have an occupancy sensor controlling the lights in the hall, and another controlling the lights on the landing. This has worked well for over 10 years.

I'm now building a glass balustrade with LED lighting in the handrail on stairs and landing. I would like this to be controlled by both occupancy sensors, so that if either sensor is triggered the handrail lighting on the stairs and landing will both come on.

To make this more complicated - the landing and hall sensors are currently on different circuits at the consumer unit.

Can this be done somehow, perhaps with solid state relays?

 

[SUNRAY]

Existing lamps shown as black circles with red and black wiring, orange switches being occupancy sensors, these usually have a neutral connexion but not shown here.

Additional lamp shown as pink circle with brown and blue wiring, purple being a relay coil with a changeover (2 way) contact.

The enclosure containing the relay will require a label indicating "2 supplies"

 

[ericmark]

Would not want to use solid state relays, as can"t be 100% sure of isolation, I can't understand @SUNRAY as clearly need to keep the two circuits independent. Two relays will work as the relay is isolating, but there may be an easier way, using smart devices.

What you need to consider is how easy to access wiring to physically do the job, and how easy to mount the relays.

I have used Nest Mini and voice commands, but working out what works with what is not easy.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I would like this [handrail] to be controlled by both occupancy sensors, so that if either sensor is triggered the handrail lighting on the stairs and landing will both come on.

I don't think it is clear what is actually required.

 

[DaveFix]

Existing lamps shown as black circles with red and black wiring, orange switches being occupancy sensors, these usually have a neutral connexion but not shown here.

Additional lamp shown as pink circle with brown and blue wiring, purple being a relay coil with a changeover (2 way) contact.

The enclosure containing the relay will require a label indicating "2 supplies"

Hi Sunray,

That's very impressive and posted so quick!

I've spent the day trying to get my tiny head round it, and think I finally understand. I take it that everything is shown as OFF in your diagram, and that if for example the Hall occupancy sensor was triggered, it would look something like this:

If I've got that right, can you please advise if something like this LY2NJ relay would do the trick (is it overkill being DP?):

â 240v AC 8 Pin Coil General Purpose Relay DPDT and Socket Base ââ LY2NJ 10A | eBay

240V AC 8 Pin Relay and Socket Base Included, 10A DPDT LY2NJ HH62P-L JQX-13F/LY2. 240v AC 8 Pin Relay and Socket Base Included, 10A DPDT LY2NJ HH62P-L JQX-13F/LY2. 240vAC LY2NJ Relay Coil. Model No :LY2NJ HH62P/JQX-13F/LY2 With PTF08A Socket Base.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[DaveFix]

Would not want to use solid state relays, as can"t be 100% sure of isolation, I can't understand @SUNRAY as clearly need to keep the two circuits independent. Two relays will work as the relay is isolating, but there may be an easier way, using smart devices.

What you need to consider is how easy to access wiring to physically do the job, and how easy to mount the relays.

I have used Nest Mini and voice commands, but working out what works with what is not easy.

I'm in the middle of a complete renovation of hall, stairs and landing, with ceilings off and loft boards up so I'm happy to install new cables.

The reason I wanted to avoid smart devices and, if possible, use solid state relays is to have the most reliable solution for the long-term. With Internet connected devices in particular I don't think manufacturers are committed to fixing security holes beyond the first few years, so I didn't want to get locked in to a system I'll need to replace later - but that's another topic.

 

[DaveFix]

[...] LED lighting in the handrail on stairs and landing. I would like this to be controlled by both occupancy sensors, so that if either sensor is triggered the handrail lighting on the stairs and landing will both come on.

I don't think it is clear what is actually required.

It's the LED lighting that will be inside the handrail, beaming down into the glass. If it was controlled by the occupancy sensor on the landing, then the handrails wouldn't illuminate when you walk through the hall. If it was controlled by the occupancy sensor in the hall, then the landing handrail would be unlit unless you walked downstairs.

 

[ericmark]

So you need a box with two relays, job one is select relays which can fit in a box of a size you like.

I did it with my central heating, there was room in the kitchen cabinet to mount a box large enough for two din rail mounted 8 pin valve base relays.

But guess you want smaller units?

 

[SUNRAY]

Hi Sunray,

That's very impressive and posted so quick!

I've spent the day trying to get my tiny head round it, and think I finally understand. I take it that everything is shown as OFF in your diagram, and that if for example the Hall occupancy sensor was triggered, it would look something like this:

View attachment 302568

If I've got that right, can you please advise if something like this LY2NJ relay would do the trick (is it overkill being DP?):

â 240v AC 8 Pin Coil General Purpose Relay DPDT and Socket Base ââ LY2NJ 10A | eBay

240V AC 8 Pin Relay and Socket Base Included, 10A DPDT LY2NJ HH62P-L JQX-13F/LY2. 240v AC 8 Pin Relay and Socket Base Included, 10A DPDT LY2NJ HH62P-L JQX-13F/LY2. 240vAC LY2NJ Relay Coil. Model No :LY2NJ HH62P/JQX-13F/LY2 With PTF08A Socket Base.

www.ebay.co.uk

Yes you have understood correctly and that relay will be fine. The listing says 240V ac but the picture shows a 12V dc version.
Looking at their other items I'm sure they have simply used the wrong image but it may be worth confirming the requirement for a mains version when you order.
As others have said you will also require an enclosure, any 'electrical box' that it fits in will do but consider the space required for wiring.

 

[SUNRAY]

Would not want to use solid state relays, as can"t be 100% sure of isolation, I can't understand @SUNRAY as clearly need to keep the two circuits independent. Two relays will work as the relay is isolating, but there may be an easier way, using smart devices.

What you need to consider is how easy to access wiring to physically do the job, and how easy to mount the relays.

I have used Nest Mini and voice commands, but working out what works with what is not easy.

Indeed this does require full isolation and I should have emphasised 'not solid state'.

 

[SUNRAY]

So you need a box with two relays, job one is select relays which can fit in a box of a size you like.

I did it with my central heating, there was room in the kitchen cabinet to mount a box large enough for two din rail mounted 8 pin valve base relays.

But guess you want smaller units?

In this situation only the one is required.

 

[DaveFix]

I'm planning to locate the relay junction box in the cupboard under the stairs, since that's where the controller for the LED light feature will be. I have some spare 4-core cable (6243Y) which I'd like to use for this.

The cable from the landing sensor and the cable from the hall sensor will cross paths in the hall ceiling. Keeping in mind these are two separate supplies, can I terminate them both in a single junction box and then run both supplies together inside the 4-core cable to the cupboard under the stairs, providing I clearly mark both junction boxes with "2 supplies" - or is this a big no no?

 

[DaveFix]

Rough sketch

 

[DaveFix]

Edited