How do I lay vinyl flooring over wood parquet tiles

[dodger007]

We need to lay vinyl flooring in our kitchen+diner and utility room (next to the kitchen). The kitchen and utility room have just had a make-over of new worktops, doors, drawers etc. and the current flooring just does not go now. The kitchen has parquet tiles over quarry tiles/concrete which I laid 30 yrs ago. The dining area also has parquet tiles laid around 10/15 yrs ago. The utility room currently has vinyl flooring over concrete (which is not perfectly flat). I am not prepared to lift up the parquet flooring - in the kitchen they go under the units and there's NO WAY I can get these up. I have had two companies around to quote for vinyl flooring (Amtico/Karndean tiles too expensive). One was concerned with the slight ridges in the parquet and the uneven utility area. He suggested removing old vinyl and re-screeding with self-leveling compound. OK. Then lay vinyl over new screed and over the parquet in kitchen/diner. The other company refused to lay over the parquet but did suggest felt-backed vinyl OVER the existing in the utility area.

I'm stumped. Researching this tonight I discover that laying ply over wood flooring is recommended as a substrate before laying vinyl. But ply is 'wood' isn't it? I get the feeling that this is just to iron out the 'bumps' - well my parquet floor is very flat. So why can't I lay vinyl straight on top?

Can anybody help?

 

[mattysupra]

vinyl cant be laid direct over a solid wood floor. It will reduce how much it can breath and cause it to blow off the subfloor. You can plywood over the wood blocks and the plywood will protect them. Yes both are wood but plywood is stable where as solid hardwoods are not.

You also stand the chance of them coming loose while pinning the plywood down.

They should be taken up really.

You should also use a smoothing compound over the concrete area to protect the vinyl from contaminates and also smooth the floor out.

 

[dodger007]

As mentioned previously, ripping up the parquet is not an option (in this case). We have just spent over £5k refurbishing the kitchen units which stand ON the parquet flooring. At the extremes of possibilities I think I have the option of 1. Do nothing and 2. Replace the kitchen units (or remove everything, then hope it all goes back as was). Both these are not acceptable so I need to compromise somewhere.

Just to add to the potential problem I have also been advised that If I laid vinyl over the parquet there is a likelyhood of the bitumen adhesive under the parquet leeching up through the wood and drawn into the vinyl, staining it. Have you heard of this?

One fitter suggested screeding over the parquet to seal the bitumen in but this wouldn't help with the moisture ingress problem. Alternatively he proposed to cover with hardboard but it would mean screwing it down through the parquet - which would restrict any expansion of the blocks. Would you be able to glue the hardboard, with a flexible adhesive - silicone sealant perhaps? The widest part of floor is under 2.0m so there would only be one 'join' in the hardboard.

With these comprimises in mind have you any idea of the size of the risk to flooring blowing &/or bitumen migration? If it's likely to take 5-10 yrs for evidence it may be worth it. However if you think there will be humps and staining after one winter I need to keep thinking.

Thanks for your help so far, but I need a solution to the problem - not dismiss it!

ETA: is there an alternative floor covering we could consider laying over the parquet? Any suggestions welcome!

 

[mattysupra]

you cant screed over wood blocks. The moister will blow them off the floor.

You cant lay vinyl direct onto the moister blocks. They will sweat and blow off the floor.

You can lay plywood over the top. (not hardboard) . It will need to be glued with the correct flexible flooring adhesive. It can be pinned with the correct divergent staples. They still allow movement.

Wood block floors dont move very much compared to a wide plank etc so you wont cause expansion problem. Plywood is a stable product and will protect the wood blocks from the vinyl sweating which is minimum as it acts as a insulator etc.

However the correct practise is to uplift them like i said before as pinning the plywood can disturd them. But this is a risk you are going to have to take if you cant uplift them and do the job properly.


Think you need to get some one in to give you a quote that knows what there doing.

 

[dodger007]

you cant screed over wood blocks. The moister will blow them off the floor.

I'm with you there. I thought it sounded odd.

You cant lay vinyl direct onto the moister blocks. They will sweat and blow off the floor.

I guess you mean the wood (parquet) blocks. As you said before.

You can lay plywood over the top. (not hardboard) . It will need to be glued with the correct flexible flooring adhesive. It can be pinned with the correct divergent staples. They still allow movement.

This is Good News and I can understand it. Any idea on the 'correct flexible flooring adhesive'? Who should I call - Ball's for instance?

Wood block floors dont move very much compared to a wide plank etc so you wont cause expansion problem. Plywood is a stable product and will protect the wood blocks from the vinyl sweating which is minimum as it acts as a insulator etc.

Again Good News which I understand.

However the correct practise is to uplift them like i said before as pinning the plywood can disturd them. But this is a risk you are going to have to take if you cant uplift them and do the job properly.

The parquet tile blocks are in very good condition and firmly fixed - I would be surprised if pinning the ply disturbed any.

Think you need to get some one in to give you a quote that knows what there doing.

That's always a difficult one - how do you know? All three fitters who have seen the job are members of the NICF and I have three varying stories.
The guy who suggested the hardboard visited this evening and now thinks this wouldn't work. His main concern was the bitumen leeching up through the wood and staining the vinyl. He has taped about a metre square of vinyl over the kitchen floor and asked us to inspect it after about 3 weeks. To be honest I really don't expect to see anything (worth worrying about).

I really appreciate your help on my dilemma Matt and apologise for going on about this - but I'm stuck!

Help with plywood spec (thickness) and adhesive or 'staples' appreciated.

Many thanks.

 

[mattysupra]

look up NICF "Master" fitters and try them.

You can get bleed through of bitumin. But you should not lay vinyl direct onto wood blocks.


Yes you can speak to F-Ball about adhesive. You might want to speak to them for advice on floor prep also. They will say the same as me.

You need an flexible wood block adhesive. Sika, F-Ball, Bona etc

Divergent staples method would be meastri-keer, now named spotnails. Its a specialist tool that 90% of good floorlayers should own. There is a manual version as well. You need to speak to the floorlayer about this.


Where about are you? i might have someone over your way i can recommend.

 

[dodger007]

Many thanks for all your help so far Matt.

We stopped off at another flooring shop this afternoon and the guy in there recommended laying either ply or hardboard (depending on condition of parquet and span of area) and left 'unfixed'. But he also explained it would be up to the surveyor who would come out to view and provide a quote based on the extent of the task. But he did think it feasible and based on my information thought that a good quality hardboard would do the trick. Not fixed down - because he thought it wouldn't move. I think he could be right in this respect (it's quite a small area).

Their 'specialist' is coming out next Tues evening so will report back what this expert says.

I am familiar with Sika products (used in the automotive industry). May follow-up next week. I'll see what the guy suggests this week with regard to fixing the h/b - or whatever. Depends how long the staples are, the parquet is only about 3/8 (10mm) thick.

What thickness (& spec) ply would you think I need? As I said the parquet is in very good condition, flat and firm.

I'm in Essex, between Chelmsford & Maldon.

Many thanks again for help so far - there is light at the end of the tunnel!

 

[steve22]

i fail to see how unfixed hardboard or ply would lay flat??
I would reccomend 4mm ply stapled down with short staples (Maestri) and then felt backed vinyl tackified to the hardboard.
Be aware though that your parquet could pop anytime but the ply should hold it together.
Utility room should be primed and then a latex screed applied

 

[dodger007]

Thanks for your input Steve. I think I know what you mean and do agree somewhat. Note that I'm already at finished floor level - so any additional height is a concern - that's why I'm favouring hardboard but I'm prepared to be educated. Whatever is laid will have to be disguised well at the door openings. Fortunately the door from the utility to kitchen opens out (toward utility) and door from kitchen to lounge opens into lounge (carpeted). There is a wooden threshold between utility and kitchen which is only just proud of current floor heights. The kickboards will have to be planed back I guess. Fortunately they are quite short.

Back to h/b or ply fixing. I fear staples may be too long - the parquet blocks are only about 9mm thick - possibly less after a few planings/sandings they've had. I don't think it's a good idea to fix through the wood into the concrete below. I'm thinking more on tacks where the boards join (very few places) and a flexible adhesive around the perimeter. Any ideas on a suitable adhesive. I've read that neither silicone or urethane like bitumen - but not sure if this will be a real problem.

We have another surveyor coming out tomorrow eve (Tues). He's from the shop we visited on Sat who suggested the hardboard as above. Will keep you posted.

There's no problem with the utility room. It's already vinyl on concrete and a new screed of SLC is in the plan.

Cheers.

 

[dodger007]

LATEST UPDATE.

Had the surveyor out last evening who saw NO PROBLEM laying over the wooden parquet tiles if we used FELT-BACKED vinyl. They will probably use double sided tape around the edges. That's it. Problem solved.

Thanks for all your input but please note above resolution for future advise.

 

[WoodYouLike]

Further advice: get the surveyors opinion in writing as a guarantee. Presume they will do the works?

 

[mattysupra]

i have told you how to do the job! Felf back vinyl may be fine but then you go onto say they may use double sided tape around the edge? You NEVER stick vinyl around the edge only. And you NEVER use double side tape for vinyl also unless anti-plas of a mushroom tape for felt backed. IF its stuck around the edges only 2 walls can be stuck at 45 degree to each other.


Get yourself a proper flooring company in. Are you certain you have phoned people off the nicf website. If so can you p.m there names please.

 

[dodger007]

With respect Matty, you haven't told me how to do the job! Well, apart from ripping up the parquet - and that is NOT an option.

I was open to the ply or hardboard option but ply thickness or fixing method was not confirmed. On further examination I think the parquet tiles are only about 6-7mm thick and firing too long staples through them might cause them to 'lift' (maybe?). I preferred the flexible adhesive route and spoke to F Ball who suggested Stycobond B95. Then the offer of Felt-Backed Vinyl was suggested so I haven't followed up any more on adhesives.

How they (NICF Master Fitter) fix the vinyl is up to them - I'm not bothered. I didn't understand this from you: "....also unless anti-plas of a mushroom tape for felt backed."
Or this: "IF its stuck around the edges only 2 walls can be stuck at 45 degree to each other." We don't have any walls at 45 deg to eachother, they are all about 90 deg. Or do you mean a strip of d/s tape at 45 deg.? I don't understand this.

I have sent you a PM with Shop & fitter details.

Thanks again.

 

[mattysupra]

sorry ment 90 degres on sticking down, not 45. Vinyl moves with temperature. If secured on all 4 walls it will bubble in the middle. Either it will need to be fully bonded to prevent this or stuck on 2 walls only at 90 degrees to each other so it can still move in the oposite direction.

Anti plas is a type of tape that wont react with vinyl. Most double sided tapes react and turn mushy and discolour the vinyl.

Mushroom tape is a type of velcro tape that sticks the the felt with small barbed hooks (velcro!)

Also if stuck on all 4 walls it will not be able to vent any moister so will build up in the center.

 

[dodger007]

Again I am indebted to you for your help and advise Matt.

I see the logic behind only sticking down 2 sides - agreed. The dining area (only about 3m x 2m) is a regular shape. The kitchen has units on most of three sides with openings for slide-under fridge and dishwasher plus cooker. And an opening into the dining area. This really is a small area and would probably be OK to stick all around but I'll bear this advise in mind. I won't be fitting it so will chat to fitter prior to start. One thing I wasn't too happy about was they said they would lay a Laytex screed in the utility room (it's a little uneven in one place - not much). I read that water-based is best - what do you think? As said, it won't need much - less than 3mm in worst place. Does Laytex feather-out any better?

Thanks for the info on tapes - didn't know this. Mushroom tape sound interesting as it would allow natural movement and probably aid moisture ventilation.

Well, it's all ordered now. The NICF Master Fitter is booked for 1st Sep (next available slot) and will lay the screed sometime before. Will have to get cracking soon to empty rooms etc....

Thanks.