Yer, right!
In or out
- Thread starter Harbourwoodwork
- Start date
I vote in.
Many of the issues we have with the EU, are really only caused by our own weak, unprincipled or self opportunistic politicians (Many of them have EU pensions, or are pro EU so they can brown nose a future EU job).
The money we give the EU, the uncontrolled immigration, the money we contribute to bailouts, the silly directives, the ECHR, all could be neutered with a decent strong UK Government, without overly ****ing of the EU (they would make lot's of noise, but it would just be that).
And the reason we have such lacklustre modern leaders/parties/governments is the voters fault, we still have huge swaths of tribalism voters, and stupid voters (that man clegg seemed nice on TV).
War with who?
Modern media means we are too connected to other western nations, to much cultural exchange for us to want to go to war with most of Europe or the US.
Africa is too busy fighting itself, and has no real chance of ever being a real threat.
Asia might want to wage economic war on the west, but they are not stupid, they know any real aggression would be pointless and possibly nuclear.
Russia is a basket case, we had a cold war, I can't see them wanting another.
That leaves the middle east, let them stew in their own issues, military we can stand up to them on the very slim chance they decide they want to attack us.
Many of the issues we have with the EU, are really only caused by our own weak, unprincipled or self opportunistic politicians (Many of them have EU pensions, or are pro EU so they can brown nose a future EU job).
The money we give the EU, the uncontrolled immigration, the money we contribute to bailouts, the silly directives, the ECHR, all could be neutered with a decent strong UK Government, without overly ****ing of the EU (they would make lot's of noise, but it would just be that).
And the reason we have such lacklustre modern leaders/parties/governments is the voters fault, we still have huge swaths of tribalism voters, and stupid voters (that man clegg seemed nice on TV).
War with who?
Modern media means we are too connected to other western nations, to much cultural exchange for us to want to go to war with most of Europe or the US.
Africa is too busy fighting itself, and has no real chance of ever being a real threat.
Asia might want to wage economic war on the west, but they are not stupid, they know any real aggression would be pointless and possibly nuclear.
Russia is a basket case, we had a cold war, I can't see them wanting another.
That leaves the middle east, let them stew in their own issues, military we can stand up to them on the very slim chance they decide they want to attack us.
E
EddieM
out, but it will be awfully expensive.
thats like the origina plan the British were confronted with in the begining,A trading block and that sounded good to the nation at the time not this version
But we only have this version, because we voted for politicians and governments that wanted to go along with it.
The EU is an institution, every institution looks to increase it's size and power, it doesn't matter what it was sold as, anyone should have figured this, and voted for politicians that would keep it in check (and protested/rioted when they did not listen).
I think your right, this is the nature of institutions,people spend other peoples money too readily I used to be on a managing committee looking after maintenance on housing and money would be spent all too easily
OUT of the EU - the European Parliament, the unelected European Commission, the European Court of Injustice, the European Defence Force which wants total control over our armed forces, the European Central Bank which want to regulate the City of London out of existence and set up a single European financial hub in - you guessed it - Germany.
Back IN to EFTA, the European Free Trade Association. Along with Norway, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Iceland, we'd have guaranteed and total access to the trade markets of the whole of the European Economic Area (the EFTA countries plus the EU), but retain control over our own borders, our own armed forces, and our own laws.
Back IN to EFTA, the European Free Trade Association. Along with Norway, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Iceland, we'd have guaranteed and total access to the trade markets of the whole of the European Economic Area (the EFTA countries plus the EU), but retain control over our own borders, our own armed forces, and our own laws.
The only real issue with the EU parliament is it lacks teeth (as you say unelected EU commission), and it is extremely wasteful with funding.
Both of these are only issues because our own leaders are too weak to control how much money the EU demands, and are to nepotist to cut down the commission (how many MP's want to get in on that gravy train).
Only have power as we allow them to.
But who decommissioned our carriers, who keeps buying the wrong planes, who keeps buying the wrong jeeps, successive labour/conservative governments, that WE voted for.
And it really is BOTH their fault, no one can make this a labour or conservative issue solely.
Doesn't really matter if we are in our out of the EU, they want to shut us out, but they can't without breaking WTO and other rules, before we even talk of the Euro palava.
I don't like the EU government, but every issue you list here, is really an issue because of our own government.
You mean the one which took us in on a false pretext, and the following governments who kept us in and wouldn't allow a referendum on the issue, and still won't?
And what are you doing about it other than whining on an internet forum?
Now what is 90% of the population doing, the same?
Everyone has the option to vote UKIP, only 10% or so do so.
Those who think UKIP are to much of a single issue party are quite free to carry out peaceful marches/protests, pester their MP (and I don't mean sign an internet petition).
Quite right, most of us are content to live our lives and leave it to the very small proportion of the population who can be bothered to run the country. So I suppose I'm happy to be classed with the vast majority of moaners who get governed, rather than govern. That's democracy for you.
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Aron is right in so many ways, that our willingness to allow our leaders to make the wrong decisions has led us here and for most of my life I have done as Sooeyhas. But recently I have taken a far more active interest and will be doing my bit, even if it is just walking round the streets posting leaflets through letterboxes.
I love Europe and especially Britain but the strength of Europe lies in its divercity and not in standardisation and this lazy ass is willing to get off his sofa to ditch the EU
I love Europe and especially Britain but the strength of Europe lies in its divercity and not in standardisation and this lazy ass is willing to get off his sofa to ditch the EU
Well I voted IN! Why? Because I'm looking at a future that isn't likely to happen in my lifetime - and if that makes me mad then so be it!
My knowledge of history is not brilliant so please feel free to correct any mistakes:
Within the last two millennia, our species has changed from a load of 'tribes' (for want of a better word), constantly fighting with their neighbours over land - and probably women too - into the altogether larger organizations we call 'nations' or 'states'. Consequently, we have the security of knowing that the food cupboard need never be empty, that water will (almost) always come out of the tap and that our daughters will be able to cross the street without being kidnapped and raped by some scumbag from the next county!
(I'm talking Europe here. Africa still has a long way to go. 
)
This didn't happen overnight. Within the last thousand years, we've had Yorkshiremen fighting Lancastrians over who rules England, Englishmen fighting Scots over who rules Britain, Brits fighting Germans over who rules Europe.
Do you see a pattern here? Those 'tribes' have got bigger and we've all benefited as a result. I consider it inevitable that the trend will continue until there is only one tribe with one government, presumably the UN, and Europe is our logical next step up the evolutionary ladder.
Would this be so bad? Let's look at the alternatives:
1) Stay out on our own. This will mean being a very small cog sitting uneasily inside a very big machine. That's not an untenable position but it might be a poor one. Look at North Korea if you want an example.
2) Join a different club. There aren't that many viable choices. The USA is, arguably, our best bet and possibly our only other option. Would you want to wake up one morning as a citizen of the US? Make your own mind up.
3) Join a loose association of other independently-minded nations. That could work. There might be problems over language - and culture too - but I don't see why a bunch of small nations shouldn't put their differences aside, pool their resources and come up with a common set of ideals that they can all agree on. In fact it's been done already.
Personally, I don't want my great, great, great grandchildren to find themselves stuck in the last independent nation that doesn't know where it's going. And I certainly don't want them to have to grow up in one that's been invaded by stealth and taken over by some Muslim alliance. 
No offence to Muslims as such, but most of the places you live are run by political crooks who've hijacked your religion to suit their own ends - and the Arab Summer of Love might still be a long way off. 
(Trust me, it will happen!)
All things considered, Europe is a pretty good place to be. Yes, it's full of crooked politicians lining their own pockets - but we have them too. And the ECHR? Well what's wrong with that? I've listened to politicians on their soap boxes trying to tell us that we practically invented human rights and we don't need a bunch of Eurocrats telling us what we can and can't do in our own country.
Well why am I not surprized. Everybody is always in favour of 'human rights' as long as they're roughly in agreement with their own beliefs (for which read prejudices) and don't impinge on whatever it is they want to do. Yes, our own record was always pretty good but it wasn't perfect, as any homosexual will tell you!
And then there's EFTA. I remember it well. Way back in the sixties I imagined a Europe in which Germany quit the Common market (as it was then) and joined us in EFTA.
But I didn't understand the politics of it all. I've said this before but I'll say it again anyway: The Common Market existed so that German factory workers could pay French and Italian farmers to grow food nobody wanted then pay them again to destroy it. It was the means by which Germany repaid France for WWII. Remind me somebody; which side were the Italians on again? 
Without Germany on board, EFTA was always doomed to fail. But what would have happened if they had come in? Well the French would have kissed their agricultural subsidy goodbye and done their proverbial dingers but, in the long run, they too would have joined in - as would most of the rest of Europe. And then there would have been closer cooperation, tighter integration, a general acceptance of the ECHR, --- Anybody like to guess where this is going? 
My knowledge of history is not brilliant so please feel free to correct any mistakes:
Within the last two millennia, our species has changed from a load of 'tribes' (for want of a better word), constantly fighting with their neighbours over land - and probably women too - into the altogether larger organizations we call 'nations' or 'states'. Consequently, we have the security of knowing that the food cupboard need never be empty, that water will (almost) always come out of the tap and that our daughters will be able to cross the street without being kidnapped and raped by some scumbag from the next county!
(I'm talking Europe here. Africa still has a long way to go. )This didn't happen overnight. Within the last thousand years, we've had Yorkshiremen fighting Lancastrians over who rules England, Englishmen fighting Scots over who rules Britain, Brits fighting Germans over who rules Europe.
Do you see a pattern here? Those 'tribes' have got bigger and we've all benefited as a result. I consider it inevitable that the trend will continue until there is only one tribe with one government, presumably the UN, and Europe is our logical next step up the evolutionary ladder.Would this be so bad?
Let's look at the alternatives:1) Stay out on our own. This will mean being a very small cog sitting uneasily inside a very big machine. That's not an untenable position but it might be a poor one. Look at North Korea if you want an example.
2) Join a different club. There aren't that many viable choices. The USA is, arguably, our best bet and possibly our only other option. Would you want to wake up one morning as a citizen of the US? Make your own mind up.
3) Join a loose association of other independently-minded nations. That could work. There might be problems over language - and culture too - but I don't see why a bunch of small nations shouldn't put their differences aside, pool their resources and come up with a common set of ideals that they can all agree on. In fact it's been done already.
Personally, I don't want my great, great, great grandchildren to find themselves stuck in the last independent nation that doesn't know where it's going.
And I certainly don't want them to have to grow up in one that's been invaded by stealth and taken over by some Muslim alliance. No offence to Muslims as such, but most of the places you live are run by political crooks who've hijacked your religion to suit their own ends - and the Arab Summer of Love might still be a long way off. (Trust me, it will happen!)All things considered, Europe is a pretty good place to be. Yes, it's full of crooked politicians lining their own pockets - but we have them too. And the ECHR? Well what's wrong with that? I've listened to politicians on their soap boxes trying to tell us that we practically invented human rights and we don't need a bunch of Eurocrats telling us what we can and can't do in our own country.
Well why am I not surprized. Everybody is always in favour of 'human rights' as long as they're roughly in agreement with their own beliefs (for which read prejudices) and don't impinge on whatever it is they want to do. Yes, our own record was always pretty good but it wasn't perfect, as any homosexual will tell you!And then there's EFTA. I remember it well. Way back in the sixties I imagined a Europe in which Germany quit the Common market (as it was then) and joined us in EFTA.
But I didn't understand the politics of it all. I've said this before but I'll say it again anyway: The Common Market existed so that German factory workers could pay French and Italian farmers to grow food nobody wanted then pay them again to destroy it. It was the means by which Germany repaid France for WWII. Remind me somebody; which side were the Italians on again? Without Germany on board, EFTA was always doomed to fail.
But what would have happened if they had come in? Well the French would have kissed their agricultural subsidy goodbye and done their proverbial dingers but, in the long run, they too would have joined in - as would most of the rest of Europe. And then there would have been closer cooperation, tighter integration, a general acceptance of the ECHR, --- Anybody like to guess where this is going?
