In the wake of the Corgi Cowboy
- Thread starter halcal
- Start date
Sponsored Links
Sorry, my first post was rather vague. Thye original boiler was a 25 year old Thorn.
The new boiler is a Potterton Derwent compact A - 4/50 permenant pilot. It arrived ready- assembled.
Boiler's fine, just the service that sucks.
So.. is power flushing a good or a bad thing?
The 25 year's worth of crud that isn't plastered to my walls is still in the syetem. And it took a girl with a very fundamental grasp of physics to fix the idiocy of the Corgi registered cowboy.
I still think that 8 grand for a 1 grand boiler, around 44 man hours ( this is Scotland and the going rate for plumbers here is around £20 ph) and about 7 feet of flexible flue duct is way over the odds. I have to take that on the chin, I know. The fact that he now wants to charge extra for not managing to get the system working is what I call untenable. He's not getting another quid out of me!
The new boiler is a Potterton Derwent compact A - 4/50 permenant pilot. It arrived ready- assembled.
Boiler's fine, just the service that sucks.
So.. is power flushing a good or a bad thing?
The 25 year's worth of crud that isn't plastered to my walls is still in the syetem. And it took a girl with a very fundamental grasp of physics to fix the idiocy of the Corgi registered cowboy.
I still think that 8 grand for a 1 grand boiler, around 44 man hours ( this is Scotland and the going rate for plumbers here is around £20 ph) and about 7 feet of flexible flue duct is way over the odds. I have to take that on the chin, I know. The fact that he now wants to charge extra for not managing to get the system working is what I call untenable. He's not getting another quid out of me!
Lets deal with the boiler first, exactly what was quoted, word for word.
A picture of the boiler from side please
Another of the flexible flue which sounds interesting.
Yet another of the air ducting inside and out.
The size of the system, number of rads, how many rooms, and the model and number of the pump, should be able to include a pic with the boiler with any luck.
Power flushing a 25 year old rusty steel pipes
The disclaimer would read something like;
We would not advice or recommend power flushing a system of this age. You must understand that aggressive cleaning will loosen rust/corrosion within the system only for it to circulate later to cause serious damage to the pump and other system controls, there would also be a high risk to the pipework and any weak spots will leak, possibly to a point where the whole system pipework would need replacing.
However the system should be flushed with fresh water and drained before a final test and inhibitor is added.
Plumbers charge £20 an hr around here. Maybe they do Industrial heating engineer however charge considerable more, I have many friends up North and do know the rates. And in any case it is irrelevant. You excepted the labour cost when you employed them to do the job. You must also understand that when you quote for this type of work there are many things which can and do go wrong and will be built into the price.
The service sucks as you say and your beef should be along those lines. On the other hand I do not know the relationship between Client/engineer, no offence but some clients can be a nightmare. Not paying the invoice is not the best way to get call back and little extras chucked in, withholding say 10% untill your happy is standard practice. I could rant on but as I said I do not know under what conditions they were working and will not speculate.
The ventilation duct you question should be a minimum 270 cm/2 high level and 540 cm/2 low level, as its below ground it is ducted in and any fan will be interlocked with the boiler, again normal stuff and I cannot comment unless I see pictures.
If they have plastered your walls with crud including any other damage then claim off their insurance.
The price as far as I'm concerned is within the exceptable range for the job, therefore your only complaint is with the service.
More after I see the pics
A picture of the boiler from side please
Another of the flexible flue which sounds interesting.
Yet another of the air ducting inside and out.
The size of the system, number of rads, how many rooms, and the model and number of the pump, should be able to include a pic with the boiler with any luck.
Power flushing a 25 year old rusty steel pipes
The disclaimer would read something like;
We would not advice or recommend power flushing a system of this age. You must understand that aggressive cleaning will loosen rust/corrosion within the system only for it to circulate later to cause serious damage to the pump and other system controls, there would also be a high risk to the pipework and any weak spots will leak, possibly to a point where the whole system pipework would need replacing.
However the system should be flushed with fresh water and drained before a final test and inhibitor is added.
Plumbers charge £20 an hr around here. Maybe they do Industrial heating engineer however charge considerable more, I have many friends up North and do know the rates. And in any case it is irrelevant. You excepted the labour cost when you employed them to do the job. You must also understand that when you quote for this type of work there are many things which can and do go wrong and will be built into the price.
The service sucks as you say and your beef should be along those lines. On the other hand I do not know the relationship between Client/engineer, no offence but some clients can be a nightmare. Not paying the invoice is not the best way to get call back and little extras chucked in, withholding say 10% untill your happy is standard practice. I could rant on but as I said I do not know under what conditions they were working and will not speculate.
The ventilation duct you question should be a minimum 270 cm/2 high level and 540 cm/2 low level, as its below ground it is ducted in and any fan will be interlocked with the boiler, again normal stuff and I cannot comment unless I see pictures.
If they have plastered your walls with crud including any other damage then claim off their insurance.
The price as far as I'm concerned is within the exceptable range for the job, therefore your only complaint is with the service.
More after I see the pics
Sponsored Links
I think not! There are no grounds in law for withholding payment unless it's an express contractual term.doitall said:
If you've received an invoice then you're required to pay either immediately or within whatever period of credit has been offered to you.
Halcal, where do you get the £20 per hour figure from? Is it a figure an employed person would get for working 8 hours per day or what a sole trader would charge for several lost hours (and lost pay) sourcing material, overheads and what not.
I was simpathising with your plight until you started looking down your nose at what a plumber should be earning not what he is worth.
I was simpathising with your plight until you started looking down your nose at what a plumber should be earning not what he is worth.
Not heard of Retention then Softus.
Not only that you are paying for a service, no-one in there right mind would/should pay 100% untill it has been delivered.
Payment and methods should always be included in the terms and condition, only a fool will leave it out
Not only that you are paying for a service, no-one in there right mind would/should pay 100% untill it has been delivered.
Payment and methods should always be included in the terms and condition, only a fool will leave it out
Hadn't you? Well you have nowdoitall said:
Really? Have you not heard of a proforma invoice? They're quite common in my line of business.doitall said:
Really? Let me see then; do you, as a plumber, or would you, if you aren't one but imagine being one, recite your terms and conditions to someone who has water cascading from a leak onto their lliving room suite and carpet?doitall said:
Or would you, as a customer in that situation, expect to hear such information before the leak is dealt with?
Ditto replacing a tap washer? Or repairing a leaky float valve?
Or do you deal only in circumstances where there's plenty of time to sort out such things before work commences? And are you so narrow-minded that you can't imagine any other scenarios?
Notwithstanding all of that, your opinion seems to bear no relationship to, or have any common ground with, English Law.
For a start off there's a world of difference between quoting/estimating a job and an emergency.
If a client phones in an emergency we quote our standard hourly rate, an invoice is sent with our terms on the back requesting payment with 30 days.
Our 24/7 callout is only available to our contract clients, and the terms and conditions are clearly defined.
Other than that we don't change tap washers unless it's for a contract client or part of a larger contract, lets just say not many would want to pay £100 for me to change a tap washer
If a client phones in an emergency we quote our standard hourly rate, an invoice is sent with our terms on the back requesting payment with 30 days.
Our 24/7 callout is only available to our contract clients, and the terms and conditions are clearly defined.
Other than that we don't change tap washers unless it's for a contract client or part of a larger contract, lets just say not many would want to pay £100 for me to change a tap washer
Back to this boiler!
The Potty Derwent is a very traditional band D boiler with a c.i. heat exchanger, the design is little different from boilers made 40 years ago.
As this is apparently a "dwelling house" then a Band D boiler should not have been fitted as the replacement should have been condensing! It does not meet the Building Regulations!
Can the householder explain why a condensing Band A boiler has not been fitted in this case?
Or have I missed something?
Tony
The Potty Derwent is a very traditional band D boiler with a c.i. heat exchanger, the design is little different from boilers made 40 years ago.
As this is apparently a "dwelling house" then a Band D boiler should not have been fitted as the replacement should have been condensing! It does not meet the Building Regulations!
Can the householder explain why a condensing Band A boiler has not been fitted in this case?
Or have I missed something?
Tony
The Potty specs I looked up showed the efficiency as 83%, isn't that Band D.
I thought we could only fit band A and B at present in a domestic and the expectation is that it will only be band A in a year or two.
We have already been told this boiler has a pilot light which implies a lower efficiency.
Tony
PS Why do you want to kill me?
Edit, oops, just noticed that its in Scotland where they lag behind and condensing units are not mandatory yet.
However, if the gas consumption is higher because its a large property then the savings to be achieved using a condensing boiler become that much higher. I am therefore very surprised that a 97% efficient condensing boiler has not been used.
I thought we could only fit band A and B at present in a domestic and the expectation is that it will only be band A in a year or two.
We have already been told this boiler has a pilot light which implies a lower efficiency.
Tony
PS Why do you want to kill me?
Edit, oops, just noticed that its in Scotland where they lag behind and condensing units are not mandatory yet.
However, if the gas consumption is higher because its a large property then the savings to be achieved using a condensing boiler become that much higher. I am therefore very surprised that a 97% efficient condensing boiler has not been used.
Can't find the band but I think, becasue it's an commercial unit, that it doesn't appear on the sedbuk database I know it's 83% efficient. Scottish building regs allow this type to be fitted at the moment. I think it changes next year. This is the model...permenant pilot
http://www.discountedheating.co.uk/shop/acatalog/pottertonderwntA.jpg
I completely accept that we said yes to the quote. As I said it was minus 5, we had no heat, our regular plumber (the 20 quid an hour, self employed life saver we always use) was away and as he doesn't do Corgi stuff anymore, could not have done the job on his own.
The Terms and conditions stated payment within 30 days. On the 21st day of the 30 day term, with the system not functioning, he sat in the kitchen and demanded we pay him on the spot.
This was not an emergency - we had to wait 3 weeks for them to start the job.
Far from looking down my nose at plumbers, I think that most deseerve every penny they earn. But just like everything else in life there are a few that spoil it for the rest and this bloke is one of them. His heating engineer told me that the boss (who never gets his hands dirty) expects him to work in conditions that defy every health and safety reg going. See the problem stems from the fact that the boss was telling the engineer what do do against the engineer's better judgement.
Thanks for the advce of the power flush thing. I'll get our regular bloke in to refill and put in inhibitor. Like I say, we're the mugs - we shoulld have held out a few more weeks and got a company in from Glasgow for a comparative quote.
http://www.discountedheating.co.uk/shop/acatalog/pottertonderwntA.jpg
I completely accept that we said yes to the quote. As I said it was minus 5, we had no heat, our regular plumber (the 20 quid an hour, self employed life saver we always use) was away and as he doesn't do Corgi stuff anymore, could not have done the job on his own.
The Terms and conditions stated payment within 30 days. On the 21st day of the 30 day term, with the system not functioning, he sat in the kitchen and demanded we pay him on the spot.
This was not an emergency - we had to wait 3 weeks for them to start the job.
Far from looking down my nose at plumbers, I think that most deseerve every penny they earn. But just like everything else in life there are a few that spoil it for the rest and this bloke is one of them. His heating engineer told me that the boss (who never gets his hands dirty) expects him to work in conditions that defy every health and safety reg going. See the problem stems from the fact that the boss was telling the engineer what do do against the engineer's better judgement.
Thanks for the advce of the power flush thing. I'll get our regular bloke in to refill and put in inhibitor. Like I say, we're the mugs - we shoulld have held out a few more weeks and got a company in from Glasgow for a comparative quote.
Unfortunatly you dont answer the questions and without the pics cannot pass comment.
The engineer Is BY LAW responsible for his own safety, He is not allowed to put himself or others at risk bossmans orders or not.
The same applies to the installation it is the engineer onsite who is responsible for the job, installing something knowing it is wrong would be class as manslaughter if the worse happened, and being frightened of the boss is no excuse.
That if anything is where you went wrong, and if the cheque hasn't cleared cancel it and send him another one for £6000.00 saying he can have the rest the day it works.
The engineer Is BY LAW responsible for his own safety, He is not allowed to put himself or others at risk bossmans orders or not.
The same applies to the installation it is the engineer onsite who is responsible for the job, installing something knowing it is wrong would be class as manslaughter if the worse happened, and being frightened of the boss is no excuse.
That if anything is where you went wrong, and if the cheque hasn't cleared cancel it and send him another one for £6000.00 saying he can have the rest the day it works.
DIYnot Local
Staff member
If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.
Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.
Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local
Sponsored Links
