Inset Gas Fire - Flue Flow Test

[CMairiD]

We have a tenant that has installed an inset gas fire. She wouldn't allow our servicing engineer to touch the gas fire. She allowed him to perform a spillage test, but in order to satisfy our requirements, he needs to do a flue flow test and ensure the catchment area is clear.

Right now the big bug-bear is that she says a CORGI registered engineer told her that flue flow tests can be done without pulling out the fire. Our contracted RGI says it can't -- something about the pellet getting crushed. Another RGI from another of our gas companies says it can.

Without getting in the logistics of tenant own appliances and who should check what ... can you perform a flue flow test on an inset fire without pulling the fire out? Additionally, can you ensure the catchment area on inset fires are clear without pulling it out?

Any advice the RGIs would be greatly appreciated.

 

[powell30]

Without details of the fire make/model and seeing the actual fireplace and manufaturers instructions i doubt you will get a definitive answer.....personally, i doubt you could check the catchment area properly without demounting the fire but i haven't seen it so i can't be sure. Why does your engineer need to touch the fire? if she has a gas safety cert it should be fine (ie the installer is liable if anything is amiss). Surely a copy should suffice for insurance purposes...

 

[CMairiD]

Sorry, I don't have the make and model to hand. I'll find out tomorrow morning.

Thing is, she doesn't have a CP12. She 'says' her RGI showed up to do the work and claimed fire doesn't have to be removed. So refused to get it done because she says our eng should have performed the work when he was there (despite not allowing him to pull it out) and she's not going to shell out £50 to have the flues checked. Nevermind that the appliance needs a service as well as the flue flow test -- she's just not interested.

At any rate, I've got to face this tenant in a few days, along with my RGI and her RGI (supposedly) to settle this.

Just looking for additional opinions at this point.

 

[gas4you]

I would say yes you can do it. Most inset fires are open to the flue at the top.

Unfortunately you now probably have an illegal installation in your property.

Something that shouldn't have been done without your permission

 

[CMairiD]

Unfortunately you now probably have an illegal installation in your property.

Something that shouldn't have been done without your permission

Oh undoubtedly! No one ever pursued tenant own appliances (mainly gas fires) before I started with this HA. This woman even admitted to me on the phone that she never sought permission before installing the gas fire.

And the kicker is that if we don't perform the right tests and she kills herself, we get the bullet.

 

[Stingray13]

With a tennats own fire, i.e she installed it or got it installed, you can just record its presence i.e make model and serial etc and just cross out or NA the appliance checks saying Tenants Own Appliances in notes, it has to be listed not checked, or the landlord just has to say either the fire gets checked correctly or it gets capped off, thus making it save and all things covered.

The landlord/lady can't have an issue if this is done, if the service engineer in doubt ask them to contact there local corgi inspector, and check the fire has been notified if not as the landlord/lady get them to ask corgi to check installation thus sorting it out as well.

But if its a tenants item i was told by my inspector to record its presence and nothing else.

 

[namsag]

Yes it does have to come out because its not just a flue flow test the catchment area needs cleaning , also part of the test is to physically exam the flue by shining a torch up there and making sure nothing is up there that should not be .
A flue can pass the test with remnants of fibre glass up there from previous back boiler installs , could have a damper plate or other potential blockages up there .
Anyone who says it can be done without removing it is not doing the test properly

 

[ollski]

If I can inspect the catchment space and chimney with a torch and mirror and the inset in place I leave it ncs as long as all looks ok, if I can't visually check it enough and it is siliconed in or otherwise unremovable then it's 'at risk'.

 

[CMairiD]

With a tennats own fire, i.e she installed it or got it installed, you can just record its presence i.e make model and serial etc and just cross out or NA the appliance checks saying Tenants Own Appliances in notes, it has to be listed not checked,

To a certain degree, I agree with you. We can't just cross out or N/A on tenant own gas fires. We have a duty under the Health & Safety at Work Act to ensure the integrity of the flues to which any tenant own gas appliance is attached.

In August we had CORGI Services Ltd, our quality control auditors, in to discuss with our main gas contractor the requirements of 'attending to' tenant own gas fires. The CORGI's lead project manager clearly stated that he would expect to see a flue flow test and spillage test on tenant own gas fires. Likewise he'd want to see that the catchment area is clear. To do otherwise may not land us in foul of GSIUR but could certainly leave us in danger of HSWA

Our RGI that attended this property was also at the meeting with CORGI Services and he knows what's expected on tenant own gas fires. He wanted to do as required but felt the fire had to come out to do the flue flow test and ensure the catchment area was clear.

or the landlord just has to say either the fire gets checked correctly or it gets capped off, thus making it save and all things covered.

That's exactly the point we are at. I've demanded that it be checked (by either her RGI or ours) or we will attend on Wednesday to cap off. She says she'll have an RGI there that says checks can be done without moving the fire. So the areas that namsag pointed out will help with ammo (fibre glass, damper plate, etc). I'm basically trying to head off a ****ing contest between two RGIs and one extremely difficult tenant.

if the service engineer in doubt ask them to contact there local corgi inspector, and check the fire has been notified

Now, THAT is a wonderful idea! Cheers!

 

[kirkgas]

i would get the tenant to have MI's to hand at time of joint visit, this will confirm what needs to be done, and is a requirement of the GSIUR that the engineer either has the info or has the knowledge of previous experience of the exact appliance to enable him to do all correct checks, if her RGI says he knows the appliance and it doesn't need to come out i would still demand them so that this can be confirmed, also ask to see the Gas Notification cert or date and detals of install this will give you an idea of who installed etc and might make her RGI back off if you insist CORGI will be contacted to discuss the install, pre warm your RGI to have his CORGI card with him (as he should anyway) and suggest swapping info so that when CORGI visit to inspect they have everyones info, if the guy is legit it won't be a problem, if MI's are not available etc i think you are within your rights to AR the fire until confirmation has been given of installation, if tenant uses after this they are risking themselves and are liable to prosecution, time for a tightening of policy to ensure this thing stops

 

[twgas]

I'd agrre with stingray on this, a tenant's own appliance(s) do not have to be checked under the landlord certification scheme. But she should have it serviced annually - for safety's sake. When it's serviced it will need to come out to be checked properly.

 

[weargas]

had a similar problem. CORGI said "record the details of the appliance (make/model) mark as "not landlords" and "not tested" line through every other box. If it's not the landlords property it's not their responsibilty. That's the legal stand point but the gas fitter with an ounce of conscience will do what he can to "protect life and property" Like DP's barnet, it's a bit of a grey area in parts.

 

[CMairiD]

With a tenant own cooker or hob (flueless), I'm with you all the way. Strike it out, not our responsibility.

However, that flue is a part of the fabric of the building and we are responsible for the fabric of the building, falling under HSWA. Check Essential Gas Safety, under the Landlords section. I know it is mentioned in the 3rd and 5th editions.

It's terribly confusing because in that same area of Essential Gas Safety it clearly states to strike out tenant own appliances, but then goes on mention a landlord's duty under HSWA to ensure the integrity of flues they provide for a tenant's use. So it's like CORGI are contradicting themselves.

Our main gas contractor was of the same opinion: strike it out. In order to clarify the issue, we brought in CORGI with our contractor and were clearly told that whilst not responsible for the appliance's servicing, we had a duty with regards to flue integrity.

I know there are other councils and HAs who have adopted the same approach based upon CORGI's advice.

I'm not a gas engineer, just a HA dweeb doing her best to keep us on the right side of the law, and when the current gas 'gods' that are CORGI say that is what we are have to do ... how can I to argue with them?

 

[weargas]

What a pickle!!! Looking at it from that point why don't you tell the tenant that the flue/chimney is your property and you'll have to add an additional lease for the use of (in the case that access isn't allowed for safety tests) the flue/chimney. I think £350 a week sounds right for use of flue/chimney. See what the tenant thinks of that.

 

[CMairiD]

LOL, I like your style. Perhaps we can tack on another £100/wk for: 1) not seeking permission before REMOVING our fire and installing her own and 2) for giving me such a flippin' headache!

BTW, checked last 5 CP12s. The make and models were recorded as Inset Slimeline. Nothing else. Spoke to the RGI who last saw the appliance and he couldn't identify it without pulling it out to get to the tag, which our lovely tenant won't allow.

So much for being able to check MI!

Well, if she has no CP12 tomorrow and still refuses to allow our contractor to test, then he's gonna AR it.