From what I can see, compliance with section 702 does not result in non compliance with any other part of the regulations, so treating a hot tub as if it’s a small swimming pool seems to be the most sensible approach.
Is a hot tub governed by section 702?
- Thread starter RF Lighting
- Start date
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The wording of section 702.11 is quite clear, it does not refer to hot tubs, and actually excludes them because the wording says "in particular" and then refers to swimming pools etc. Hence the need for the IET guidance. As said both paths lead to the same destination.
Blup
It does say that, but such regulations can rarely be comprehensive, particularly in the absence of definitions. A quick search finds things described as "pools", "plunge pools", "family pools", "exercise pools" "Swim Spas" etc. - do you not believe that any of them qualify as "swimming pools"?
Nor do I think that "in particular" (or "particularly") necessarily implies a comprehensive/'exclusive' list. If I said that "I like eating meat, in particular beef", I don't think that would mean that types of meat other than beef were excluded from the list of meats I 'liked eating', would it?
No amount of guidance, even if it comes from one of the co-authors of the regulations, can alter what the regulations currently 'actually say'.
If they were asked and gave an answer, I can only think of two possibilities. Firstly, they could confirm that the regulations, as worded (and as literally interpreted by you) corresponded with their intention (even if I personally would find that hard to understand). Secondly, they could indicate that they had intended to (but hadn't) make the regulations applicable to any structure containing water intended for people to partially immersed themselves in. However, that admission of different 'intention' would not change what the regulations 'actually say' (hence what one has to do, or not, to comply with the regulations 'ass they are') - they could only alter the situation by amending the regulation.
I continue to not really understand what is the perceived problem. As RF and I have said, assuming that 702 applies to hot tubs would not result in non-compliance with any other regulations - so, particularly if (as I do) one believes that application of the regs to hot tubs corresponds with 'common sense', then why not just make that ('conservative', 'safer') assumption - rather than to take the ('less safe') view that the additional safety measures required by 702 do not apply to 'a pool' which happens to be called a 'hot tub'?
Kind Regards, John
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Just to throw another spanner into the conundrum. Although people don't class hot tubs as swimming pools, my granddaughter learnt to swim when she was 2 As she was a 10 week prem baby she was still very small for her age at that time so she would take 5 or 6 breast strokes to swim from one side of the hot tub to the other. In her eyes it was a swimming pool and she used to ask if she could go in the swimming pool.
Quite so. As I keep saying, I think any attempt at distinction is not only futile but is also potentially detrimental in terms of safety. I personally feel that anything full of water that I can 'dip my foot into' should (if there is any electricity in the vicinity) be subject to the same safety requirements/standards as a massive structure that everyone would agree was a 'swimming pool'.
As for your granddaughter, when I was looking around for different types of 'pool', I came across a good few "dog swimming pools" (or just "dog pools"), and some of those were no bigger than (and probably not much different from) 'hot tubs'.
Kind Regards, John
NIC say not. Recent article in Connections mag.
To start controversy...
It's quite a large scanned PDF file.
https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/downloads/hottubs.pdf
It's quite a large scanned PDF file.
https://www.askthetrades.co.uk/downloads/hottubs.pdf
NIC say lots of things!
Is it therefore perhaps their belief that a hot tub in which I can immerse myself in water does not require the same standards of electrical safety as something that we would all call a 'swimming pool'? Such a view would make little sense to me - as far as I am concerned, the combination of people submerged in water and electricity is equally potentially dangerous no matter what size the container or what it is called!
Kind Regards, John
The term "particular" is clearly used to mean "specifically", and therefore excludes other types of basin or pool not mentioned. That is why the IET considered the need for clarification regarding hot tubs. Doubtless when the regulations are next reviewed they will be extended to include hot tubs.
Blup
As I've said, even though they are a co-author of BS7671, nothing the IET write in a 'guidance' document can change what actually is written in BS7671. If what they say in GN7 differs from what BS7671 says, then if they want things to be as stated in that guidance document, they would have to amend BS7671.
Kind Regards, John
Certainly when I did my most recent regs course, there was no reference made at all to any GN’s, OSG or electricians guides, all though I do think the earthing and bonding and the testing guidance notes should be compulsory reading as a minimum.
That may be 'clear' to you, but it certainly isn't to me.
What about the example I quoted? Do you really think that "I like eating meat, in particular beef" mans that I don't like eating any meat other than beef?
As I've said and implied repeatedly, I certainly hope so (but will not be holding my breath!) - and, given what I wrote before do you think they will also 'extend' the reg to include "plunge pools", "family pools", "exercise pools" etc. etc?
In the meantime, I personally continue to feel that it would be both ridiculous and irresponsible to believe that a hot tub should not be required to comply with the electrical safety regulations apply to a swimming pool, just because of the (imperfect) wording of the regulations!
Kind Regards, John
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