Is FTTP (Fiber to the premises) really the future?

[Peter500]

After getting fiber installed (FTTP), I'm now wondering whether copper would have been better

I accidentally broke my fiber as it is really fragile, and some installations (through flower beds) can make this problem worse. Unlike copper, it's also not possible for DIY fixes/changes to it without specialist equipment etc. I wondering why companies have gone down this path instead of using copper? My house should be able to get 10Gb through a CAT 6 cable from my cabinet. Distance may be more of a problem for some houses using CAT6, but there are other options.

Virgin Media are still using copper with a coax cable and they can deliver over 1Gb. I wouldn't say Virgin Media is perfect, but it's probably more than adequate for most people that aren't competitive gamers.

I'm wondering whether we'll be 'upgrading' to copper in the future. I would love to have an RJ45 on the wall that I can just plug into. Does anybody have any thoughts on this or know whether there's a good reason for it?

 

[Diver Fred]

Well FTTP was a BT idea and development killed off by OfCom and HMG in the first half of the 1990's. (lost my future job through that killing off.) The UK is now playing catch-up with the numerous AltNets getting money from HMG to provide a 'competative' environment for the FTTP role out - read Cherry Picking providing to easy places and letting BT or KCOM take the flack for not doing it sooner or quicker. (Rant over!)
It's not just speed but bandwidth also. It also used less Energy, the switches are smaller and less of them, even with the customer providing the energy to drive the equipment in their homes or works. There should be less street 'furniture' but sadly because of the numerous companies with their differing ideas that sadly isn't going to happen (one company seemingly installs one green box for every 50 or so houses). 'The 'speech' system is much less prone to interference so that is an improvement.
To have an RJ45 socket fed from an external source would require more copper not less (8 wires instead of 2 wires) and the limit is 1000ft/300mtrs from the router kit.
If you are breaking the fibre then it's either not well protected or it's been laid in badly. You need to get the installation company back to install properly.

 

[IT Minion]

After getting fiber installed (FTTP), I'm now wondering whether copper would have been better

I accidentally broke my fiber as it is really fragile, and some installations (through flower beds) can make this problem worse. Unlike copper, it's also not possible for DIY fixes/changes to it without specialist equipment etc. I wondering why companies have gone down this path instead of using copper? My house should be able to get 10Gb through a CAT 6 cable from my cabinet. Distance may be more of a problem for some houses using CAT6, but there are other options.

Virgin Media are still using copper with a coax cable and they can deliver over 1Gb. I wouldn't say Virgin Media is perfect, but it's probably more than adequate for most people that aren't competitive gamers.

I'm wondering whether we'll be 'upgrading' to copper in the future. I would love to have an RJ45 on the wall that I can just plug into. Does anybody have any thoughts on this or know whether there's a good reason for it?

Theres no chance we'll go back to copper.

Ethernet is good for maybe 100m using a fairly fat (higher rated) cable subject to crosstalk for 10Gbs. Which means putting a bundle of them together risks dropping the speed.

Fibre is rated for something around 350m and is completely immune to crosstalk.

Also fibre can go higher, we aren't at the theoretical limit yet. When you start looking at 100Gbs ethernet you're moving to fibre anyway.

 

[Peter500]

Well FTTP was a BT idea and development killed off by OfCom and HMG in the first half of the 1990's. (lost my future job through that killing off.) The UK is now playing catch-up with the numerous AltNets getting money from HMG to provide a 'competative' environment for the FTTP role out - read Cherry Picking providing to easy places and letting BT or KCOM take the flack for not doing it sooner or quicker. (Rant over!)
It's not just speed but bandwidth also. It also used less Energy, the switches are smaller and less of them, even with the customer providing the energy to drive the equipment in their homes or works. There should be less street 'furniture' but sadly because of the numerous companies with their differing mills that sadly isn't going to happen (one company seemingly installs one green box for every 50 or so houses). 'The 'speech' system is much less prone to interference so that is an improvement.
To have an RJ45 socket fed from an external source would require more copper not less (8 wires instead of 2 wires) and the limit is 1000ft/300mtrs from the router kit.
If you are breaking the fibre then it's either not well protected or it's been laid in badly. You need to get the installation company back to install properly.

I've found that my non-Openreach provider was useless for an install that wasn't simple. I had a total of 10 engineers (5 pairs) sent out to do an install and decided to cancel after that. It required a civils team, but they would just keep sending the normal engineers out, even though I explained why it required a civils team.

I did some plastering around my fiber cable and moving the cable probably broke it. They're never well protected, they're a tiny flimsy thing going into the ONT

My old copper cable had 8 wires. It was an SWA in an underground duct, so it was pretty much indestructible. Of course, it was only designed for telephones at the time, so probably wouldn't reach 1GB+.

 

[Peter500]

Theres no chance we'll go back to copper.

Ethernet is good for maybe 100m using a fairly fat (higher rated) cable subject to crosstalk for 10Gbs. Which means putting a bundle of them together risks dropping the speed.

Fibre is rated for something around 350m and is completely immune to crosstalk.

Also fibre can go higher, we aren't at the theoretical limit yet. When you start looking at 100Gbs ethernet you're moving to fibre anyway.

Sounds like fiber is the future. Maybe things will improve in future

This comment probably won't age well, but... 100Gbs Internet connection

I think very few homes need a 1Gb connection, they (including myself) probably get persuaded by the marketing. You can stream about 40 4k movies on a 1Gb connection. That's probably enough for most people

 

[Diver Fred]

I've found that my non-Openreach provider was useless for an install that wasn't simple. I had a total of 10 engineers (5 pairs) sent out to do an install and decided to cancel after that. It required a civils team, but they would just keep sending the normal engineers out, even though I explained why it required a civils team.

I did some plastering around my fiber cable and moving the cable probably broke it. They're never well protected, they're a tiny flimsy thing going into the ONT

My old copper cable had 8 wires. It was an SWA in an underground duct, so it was pretty much indestructible. Of course, it was only designed for telephones at the time, so probably wouldn't reach 1GB+.

So your old copper 'phone cable was U/G fed through a duct to the house? If so the installers can and should have used that. Your description of the installed internal Fibre indicates it doesn't have a proper protective sheath.

 

[IT Minion]

Sounds like fiber is the future. Maybe things will improve in future

This comment probably won't age well, but... 100Gbs Internet connection

I think very few homes need a 1Gb connection, they (including myself) probably get persuaded by the marketing. You can stream about 40 4k movies on a 1Gb connection. That's probably enough for most people

Yeah, it feels utterly ridiculous and at the same time exactly like the (made up) line about how no one would ever need more than 640k of RAM.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

There's no chance of any telecoms operator using copper again...

BT pockets £105m in first ever recycling deal for surplus copper cables

Telecoms firm has so far extracted 3,300 tonnes of potential 200,000 tonnes of cables amid £15bn rollout of full-fibre broadband

www.theguardian.com

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

After getting fiber installed (FTTP), I'm now wondering whether copper would have been better

Copper, for a normal phone line, is no longer an option.

I accidentally broke my fiber as it is really fragile, and some installations (through flower beds) can make this problem worse. Unlike copper, it's also not possible for DIY fixes/changes to it without specialist equipment etc.

Only the ONT, to router seems delicate. I happened to have a cut off sample left, from my install, and see nowt delicate about the outer section. Copper is also a fairly limited speed option, and each year, customers are demanding more and more bandwidth - simple with fibre, not so easy with copper, which began with 300bps, and maxed out at 20Mbps for many people.

 

[Old Salt]

SIL is a Project Manager for large fibre installs, think Olympic games stadium, government contracts, etc. Fibre is the way forward you just need to take appropriate measures during any install. Mine is from an overhead line and enters the property in a convenient location. With a suitable mesh system I get 750 mb up and down over wifi anywhere within my property boundary.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

There's no chance of any telecoms operator using copper again...

BT pockets £105m in first ever recycling deal for surplus copper cables

Telecoms firm has so far extracted 3,300 tonnes of potential 200,000 tonnes of cables amid £15bn rollout of full-fibre broadband

www.theguardian.com

I wonder how much it might cost BT, in recovering all that copper? I suspect most of the value, will be in exchanges, rather than outdoors.

 

[Highway Man]

I wonder how much it might cost BT, in recovering all that copper? I suspect most of the value, will be in exchanges, rather than outdoors.

Exactly, we leave miles upon miles of 25mm copper SWA in the ground when we put new lines in, it costs us more to remove and is difficult to recover fully as over the years we have added branches to it which would require too much excavation work to remove it. We excavate new trenches and add new ducting alongside the old.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

Power/lighting cables are usually armoured and just buried, but isn't BT's cabling normally in ducts?

The bloke who installed our VDSL said they'd had an incident at one where someone had broken into the cabinet, attached the cables to a tractor and pulled it all out of the underground ducts, for miles. I guess they had a winch or something. OK, BT would need to do it a lot more gently but removal should cause less disruption than inserting a new cable, which they do regularly.

They're expecting billions in total from all the copper they're making redundant. It's covering a big chunk of the upgrade cost - it's not making a profit but it all needed replacing anyway, as it was all many decades old.

Copper's main advantage over fibre is that it can carry an analogue signal, e.g. a voice call. Fibre has to be data, so the voice needs convering to/from data. Also copper can carry power, which is why tradiitional wired phones didn't need power from the home.

Theoretically you could transmit analogue voice over fibre, but it would be silly, it would be really inefficient and lower quality sound. Also you'd need a separate power supply so would have all the same issues where power cuts disconnect it.

But, given the trivial benefits vs slower data and much higher cost, we're not going to see copper comms cables again.

 

[Highway Man]

Power/lighting cables are usually armoured and just buried, but isn't BT's cabling normally in ducts?

The bloke who installed our VDSL said they'd had an incident at one where someone had broken into the cabinet, attached the cables to a tractor and pulled it all out of the underground ducts, for miles. I guess they had a winch or something. OK, BT would need to do it a lot more gently but removal should cause less disruption than inserting a new cable, which they do regularly.

They're expecting billions in total from all the copper they're making redundant. It's covering a big chunk of the upgrade cost - it's not making a profit but it all needed replacing anyway, as it was all many decades old.

Copper's main advantage over fibre is that it can carry an analogue signal, e.g. a voice call. Fibre has to be data, so the voice needs convering to/from data. Also copper can carry power, which is why tradiitional wired phones didn't need power from the home.

Theoretically you could transmit analogue voice over fibre, but it would be silly, it would be really inefficient and lower quality sound. Also you'd need a separate power supply so would have all the same issues where power cuts disconnect it.

But, given the trivial benefits vs slower data and much higher cost, we're not going to see copper comms cables again.

we don't bury SWA in the ground without ducting, although this happens when we break into the ducting to undertake repairs or new branches. Over the years you lose track of it all and why it isn't just a simple task of pulling lengths of old cable through the original ducting. there will be lots of add ons over the years which makes this impossible. New roads, housing estates, traffic signs and cctv etc.

 

[Ivor Windybottom]

Pretty sure all BT's cabling is just ducted, if they make any branches they do it in the cabinets.

Anyway, the fact is they're getting billions from the stuff, so they must be pulling it out.